To feel sad that I can't support LGBT+ anymore

[loveyouradvice]

Just that really

I realised this when DD wanted to talk about Pride and my instant reaction was to talk about the brave Lesbian protest about lesbianism being same-sex attracted..... and all my DD wanted to talk about was the joy and the fun and how all her mates had a really good time....

And I realised that has gone for me... being engaged with the L & G community when I was younger was such a rich part of my life...

And I feel very sad to have lost this... the joy and the support...

And yes, as I write this I can see how selfish this sounds ... that I am sad it is no longer simple, that my automatic and heartfelt support of anything L & G and of Stonewall is no longer there.... that it is now divided and controvesial

It shocked me to the marrow that lesbians were slammed at Pride for a banner saying lesbian = female homosexual.

I'm in awe of those brave women protesting, but I'm outraged that they needed to.

The blatant lesbophobia of yesterday's Pride was shameful. Pride was supposed to be defiance of homophobia. Now it supports the MRA sexual agenda and lesbian erasure.

I’m not understanding what this thread is about?

Is it about trans?

Or having fun?

Genuinely asking

sadness that my previous joyful celebration and total acceptance has been tainted by my worries over self identification for transgender people and the complete disregard and hatred by some factions of people who are concerned for the loss of hard earned rights for women.

This exactly. I remember the absolute joy of my first Pride, seeing many other lesbians, feeling safe to be myself in public with my girlfriend, feeling like I belonged when in every day life I had to stay very closeted.

I don't feel safe or included or welcome any more, because I am homosexual, not homogenderal. I will not be attracted to or having sex with anyone born with a penis, that's my sexual orientation. If you want to call that 'bigoted' then the word in return for you is also 'bigoted' as you are homophobic.

So now we've all called each other names, how about remembering just a few years ago when equality and inclusion was about kindness and empathy and equality for all. Not about bullying women for having a sexual orientation.

@SandyFagina 💝

I think this article explains it pretty well:

conatusnews.com/pride-london-lesbian-activism/

One thing I'd add is that it is not just a case of males (with no surgery or hormones) identifying as lesbians. There is a sizeable contingent that just identify as lesbians part time. Ie the cross dressers who happily live as straight men for most of the week. Straight cross dressers have always used gay bars on their nights out but didn't used to go into lesbian bars or lesbian support groups. Now they feel emboldened to say that while they are dressed up they are lesbians and this is backed up by the LGBT organisations.

Under current Stonewall definitions fetishistic transvestites qualify as transwomen. And these are the people lesbians are being bullied to have sex with or, at the very least, 'consider' as potential dates under the penalty of being labelled transphobic.

As being transphobic is social death for many young lesbians, the pressure is fucking disgusting imo. Barbaric. We've gone back 60 years.

bringonthescience completely opposite, Pride is a protest. Pride should always be a protest. Just a shame it's been taken over by bigots and corporations. Pride in this way can no longer make decent change and interesting statements. Time to move on.

YANBU

Apart from the homophobia directed at Lesbians it all seems to have become very commercial.

Homophobia is still sadly alive and well and the current incarnation of pride is doing nothing to challenge it, if anything it’s increasing it.

As the mother of a L who won’t go (though her straight sister and her straight friends go to party ) I’m very sad.

Yup that says it all.... L afraid to go.... DD was with a mix of straight and gay (male) friends......

I think the lesbians were off

Not every single T is a red blooded male wanting to wear spangly dresses and infringe our safe spaces . I think the T are getting a bashing because of a toxic minority

It’s complex

The lesbians weren't saying that all Ts were like that, Stop. Their banners said 'lesbian = female homosexual' and 'transactivism = lesbian erasure'. It's the activists, the aggressive types who won't/don't believe that lesbians are female homosexuals, who are causing the trouble.

For readers not au fait with the context, here's the leaflet that the protesters handed out from their position ahead of the pride parade.

It goes a lot further than the banner prawn mentions, and might help illuminate why the protest is being described as anti-trans by the press.

If you can't make out the text, you can find the full size image on the protestors' blog linked upthread.

The lowlights in terms of coming across as anti trans are referring to " so-called 'transwomen' " and accusing the entirety of trans activism and LGBT politics of coercing lesbians to have sex with men.

I absolutely do not condone anyone being pressured to have sex with anyone they don't want to.

Pride has its roots in protest activity. Whilst it's wonderful that it's become so popular it was never about attracting corporate sponsors or having politicians pouting because they didn't get to be at the front.

• Lesbians are being told that their sexual orientation is bigoted, because they only want to date and have sex with women.
• They are being told that men who identify as women and call themselves lesbians, should be included.
• They are being told that not wanting to have sex with a male bodied person, complete with male genitalia, is discriminatory.
• They are being told that choosing to retain male genitalia is not a sign of being a man - that the act of transition makes the penis a "lady penis" or "girl dick".
• They are being told that if they don't want to have sex with lady penises, then this makes them genital fetishists and transphobes.

Transwomen have every right to exist and should be heard, supported and protected. But the rights of one marginalised and minority group cannot and should not override the rights of another marginalised and minority group.

I'm starting to wish the LGB and T would become seperate.

I'm starting to wish the LGB and the T would become seperate

Bet Marsha P Johnson would be so proud of you. The struggle for all gay and trans rights, Pride, etc, has included the work and achievements of trans activists - no matter what side of the modern trans debate you're on, a little more gratitude than this would be nice.

I was at Pride, with an all-female group*. I saw plenty of other women there (cis women, to be absolutely clear). They all seemed to be having a good time. It seems to be a bit of a myth that Pride is hostile to women.

While I absolutely support the right of anyone to choose/reject anyone as a sexual or romantic partner, straight men are still much more of a problem in terms of coercive behaviour than trans women. a lot of trans people are insecure and shy about trying to get dates, not pushy and demanding. Yes, there are one or two attention-seeking individuals who try to push the idea that you have to date people you don't fancy, but most people agree that individuals get to set their own limits. However, being particularly loud and insistent about who you won't date on the grounds of their body type is also attention-seeking, and rude. It's absolutely your right to reject an individual for any reason (sexuality, gender identity, religious belief, height, weight, fashion sense or taste in music) but if you keep harping on about how you won't do it with eg Buddhists/short people/redheads, then people will start to wonder how many times a person in the 'undesired' category actually asked you for a date?
As in, maybe you are just scaremongering, like all those straight men convinced that every gay man they meet is dying to upend and bugger them because eww, that's what 'they' are like...

• (OK there were two boys in the group: the sons of two group members.)

Not every single T is a red blooded male wanting to wear spangly dresses and infringe our safe spaces .

Yes, these people don’t represent all trans people (and there are trans people opposing this crap) but the LGBT organisations have never condemned this behaviour. The fact that they have been very quick to condemn lesbians holding up a sign saying “lesbian=female homosexual” shows what side they are on. Have they been so quick to condemn the people threatening violence against these brave lesbians? No, of course not and I don’t expect that they will ever condemn this.

The main LGBT organisations generally support this agenda by opening up any lesbian groups to not just full-time transwomen, certainly not just those who have had surgery (the vast majority don’t), but to those who identify as lesbian women ‘part time’ and those who are ‘transfeminine’ (ie don’t even claim to identify as women but like wearing more feminine clothing).

There are also other more subtle changes. You might remember the whole ‘born this way’ thing and that LGBT organisations were saying that some people inherently have a same sex orientation. If you look at most LGBT information these days particularly in relation to lesbians this has all changed. It’s not an ‘orientation’ it’s a ‘preference’ (because ‘preferences’ can change). They don’t say ‘same sex’, they say ‘same gender’ (ie including males who identify as women) or ‘attracted to women’ (which includes males who identify as women).

The online websites/media are more overt. These are generally run by ‘queer women’ not lesbians – which usually means women who are opposite sex-attracted – ie they date males who identify either as men, as transwomen or something in between. This is one of the main ‘lesbian/queer women’ websites instructing lesbians on how to have lesbian sex with someone with a penis:

www.autostraddle.com/how-to-have-trans-woman-lesbian-sex-with-a-penis-414839/

This is Everyday Feminism’s Riley J Dennis telling lesbians to ‘re-educate’ ourselves to like d**k:

This is a good introduction to what is happening:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146166-Transactivism-and-the-lesbian-community

argumentative I know that. I'm just saying that as someone who is in LGB I feel like at pride and at other events, as seen on this thread, it always ends up recently devolving into protests or discussions about nothing except trans people. L, G, and B are sexualities. T is not. Because of some, not all Trans protesters, when you tell someone you're LGBT it's becoming increasingly common for them to think you're just as loud as the vocal minority because you all fall under the LGBT umbrella. THAT'S what I hate about it.

cis women

Women will do. No 'cis' about it. We are women. Utterly ridiculous and offensive term

It seems to be a bit of a myth that Pride is hostile to women.

I don't think anyone has said that Pride is hostile to women - I think posters above have mentioned that lots of straight women love going to Pride - as do "queer" women (which includes some bi women and plus "edgy" straight women with dyed hair). It is hostile to lesbians who think that lesbian = female homosexual.

I am surprised the organisers didn't simply remove the protesters on the grounds that they were not registered to march. Everyone who arranged to join the procession was allocated wristbands to wear, and we were all told, very firmly, that there was to be no smuggling in an additional person that you hadn't got a wristband for. Who's going to think it's a fun idea to do that next year? Yaxley-Lennon? Incels?
I also wonder what might have happened if a group of LGBTQ people who object to the corporatization of Pride had staged a similar protest.

Mind you, much as I think the protesters were childish, spiteful, misinformed and wrong, I have some reluctant admiration for their bravery: getting up in front of thousands and thousands of people with a message that the majority of them will find distressing and infuriating does take a certain amount of courage. I wonder whether they were trusting in the fact that the majority of people are reluctant to launch a physical attack on 'little old ladies'... or whether they were hoping that there would be a brawl so they could play the martyr.

Two of our group are a lesbian married couple. They are the ones who initially put the idea to the rest of us that we should do the parade, last year.

However, being particularly loud and insistent about who you won't date on the grounds of their body type is also attention-seeking, and rude. It's absolutely your right to reject an individual for any reason (sexuality, gender identity, religious belief, height, weight, fashion sense or taste in music)

...on the grounds of their body type? What, like being male? Well, you've nailed your colours to the mast.

How dare you class sexual orientation as a preference like taste in music? Sexual orientation is protected under law, but I notice you don't list sex as one of your grounds for refusal.

Lesbians don't do dick, and suggesting that they might consider it comes fucking close to conversion therapy. It's utterly homophobic.

However, being particularly loud and insistent about who you won't date on the grounds of their body type is also attention-seeking, and rude. It's absolutely your right to reject an individual for any reason (sexuality, gender identity, religious belief, height, weight, fashion sense or taste in music)

No. This isn’t how it works.

Anyone has a right to exclude an entire class of people from their pool of potential partners. For any reason. For lesbians, who are female homosexuals, the excluded class is men.

Im a straight woman. I don’t want to sleep with women. I exclude ALL women from my pool, because they are women.

I expect a lesbian (who is a female homosexual) to be able to exclude all men from her potential pool with no problem. Because they are men. And she’s a lesbian.

I expect a straight man to be able to exclude all men from his pool. Because he’s straight. And they’re men.

And so on.

When you say you must look at the individual you’re discounting a persons right to exclude on a class basis.

I’m married - so as well as excluding all women I exclude every other person on the planet except my husband.

If Dave from accounts is suddenly demanding a reason why I won’t sleep with him and I have to justify it on an individual level, you’d be right in thinking that Dave was out of order.

It’s no different to say that we must look at every individual and give an individual reason. No, we don’t have to.

Women (and everyone) have a right to say NO. That NO is final.

If you see that no as the start of a negotiation, then you’re in the wrong.

Reanimated, it was a protest against homophobia. Damn right the protesters went right to the head of the parade. That gained them maximum publicity. I'm sorry you don't think they were ladylike enough.

I thought Pride was about fighting lesbophobia, not reinforcing heteronormativity. TW are, by definition, male and lesbians are females solely attracted to females.