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Our list of allies grows thin! Our list of enemies grows long! Trump thread continued.

985 replies

TheClaws · 03/07/2018 02:11

The above is a quote from The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, said by Lord Elrond. At this stage, with POTUS practically pissing off every ally the US has while cosying up with several dictators, it seems quite apt.

Previous thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3283037-trump-puts-kids-in-cages-because-he-wants-his-wall-how-low-can-he-go-the-authoritarian-shitshow-continues

OP posts:
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32
ohmymimi · 13/07/2018 07:02

About 'that' breakfast - someone filled his boots, Sneerah:
@kylegriffin1
NATO Secretary General Stoltenberg quipped after his combative breakfast with Trump that he had "eggs and toast and orange juice and some good fruit salad – and it was paid for by the United States."
mobile.twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1017249690671144960

ohmymimi · 13/07/2018 07:19

Really? If only now they've seen the light they need their eyes tested:
‘Very stable’ Trump? European leaders beg to differ
The president’s wild shifts in tone left many NATO allies concluding no hidden strategy lies behind his unpredictability.'
www.politico.com/amp/story/2018/07/12/donald-trump-behavior-nato-summit-europe-716035?__twitter_impression=true

ohmymimi · 13/07/2018 07:25

Beware slippery surface! Clean up in newspapers, periodicals and magazines aisle.

Josh Dawsey
@jdawsey1
White House just issued this.
mobile.twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/1017563591451512832

BolleauxtoBankers · 13/07/2018 07:28

Good morning! I've just found this on Facebook, my apologies if it's already been posted, as it's a couple of weeks old.
"David Honig
30 June at 18:44

I'm going to get a little wonky and write about Donald Trump and negotiations. For those who don't know, I'm an adjunct professor at Indiana University - Robert H. McKinney School of Law and I teach negotiations. Okay, here goes.

Trump, as most of us know, is the credited author of "The Art of the Deal," a book that was actually ghost written by a man named Tony Schwartz, who was given access to Trump and wrote based upon his observations. If you've read The Art of the Deal, or if you've followed Trump lately, you'll know, even if you didn't know the label, that he sees all dealmaking as what we call "distributive bargaining."

Distributive bargaining always has a winner and a loser. It happens when there is a fixed quantity of something and two sides are fighting over how it gets distributed. Think of it as a pie and you're fighting over who gets how many pieces. In Trump's world, the bargaining was for a building, or for construction work, or subcontractors. He perceives a successful bargain as one in which there is a winner and a loser, so if he pays less than the seller wants, he wins. The more he saves the more he wins.

The other type of bargaining is called integrative bargaining. In integrative bargaining the two sides don't have a complete conflict of interest, and it is possible to reach mutually beneficial agreements. Think of it, not a single pie to be divided by two hungry people, but as a baker and a caterer negotiating over how many pies will be baked at what prices, and the nature of their ongoing relationship after this one gig is over.

The problem with Trump is that he sees only distributive bargaining in an international world that requires integrative bargaining. He can raise tariffs, but so can other countries. He can't demand they not respond. There is no defined end to the negotiation and there is no simple winner and loser. There are always more pies to be baked. Further, negotiations aren't binary. China's choices aren't (a) buy soybeans from US farmers, or (b) don't buy soybeans. They can also (c) buy soybeans from Russia, or Argentina, or Brazil, or Canada, etc. That completely strips the distributive bargainer of his power to win or lose, to control the negotiation.

One of the risks of distributive bargaining is bad will. In a one-time distributive bargain, e.g. negotiating with the cabinet maker in your casino about whether you're going to pay his whole bill or demand a discount, you don't have to worry about your ongoing credibility or the next deal. If you do that to the cabinet maker, you can bet he won't agree to do the cabinets in your next casino, and you're going to have to find another cabinet maker.

There isn't another Canada.

So when you approach international negotiation, in a world as complex as ours, with integrated economies and multiple buyers and sellers, you simply must approach them through integrative bargaining. If you attempt distributive bargaining, success is impossible. And we see that already.

Trump has raised tariffs on China. China responded, in addition to raising tariffs on US goods, by dropping all its soybean orders from the US and buying them from Russia. The effect is not only to cause tremendous harm to US farmers, but also to increase Russian revenue, making Russia less susceptible to sanctions and boycotts, increasing its economic and political power in the world, and reducing ours. Trump saw steel and aluminum and thought it would be an easy win, BECAUSE HE SAW ONLY STEEL AND ALUMINUM - HE SEES EVERY NEGOTIATION AS DISTRIBUTIVE. China saw it as integrative, and integrated Russia and its soybean purchase orders into a far more complex negotiation ecosystem.

Trump has the same weakness politically. For every winner there must be a loser. And that's just not how politics works, not over the long run.

For people who study negotiations, this is incredibly basic stuff, negotiations 101, definitions you learn before you even start talking about styles and tactics. And here's another huge problem for us.

Trump is utterly convinced that his experience in a closely held real estate company has prepared him to run a nation, and therefore he rejects the advice of people who spent entire careers studying the nuances of international negotiations and diplomacy. But the leaders on the other side of the table have not eschewed expertise, they have embraced it. And that means they look at Trump and, given his very limited tool chest and his blindly distributive understanding of negotiation, they know exactly what he is going to do and exactly how to respond to it.

From a professional negotiation point of view, Trump isn't even bringing checkers to a chess match. He's bringing a quarter that he insists on flipping for heads or tails, while everybody else is studying the chess board to decide whether its better to open with Najdorf or Grünfeld."

I hope to be posting a photo of my daughter's placard as she marches in London later today. Wishing everyone who will be there well. (If I were May, I'd join them, after last night!)

OhYouBadBadKitten · 13/07/2018 07:37

Good morning all. Happy Resistance Day!

Lweji · 13/07/2018 07:39

Those different types of negotiation seem to be understood by most people with half a brain.
Alas, while it can make things difficult between traditional adversaries, when it involves allies it will be difficult to overcome without the relationship changing. Perhaps irretrievably, despite partners' willingness to ride this storm.

ohmymimi · 13/07/2018 07:44

More like Churchill's bulldog:
Maggie Haberman
@maggieNYT
When Trump took his official portrait, he giddily told people he thought his frown looked "like Churchill." Great @katierogers read on that connection playing out in England
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/12/world/europe/trump-churchill-britain.html#click=t.co/yVW3I3zaoy" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.nytimes.com/2018/07/12/world/europe/trump-churchill-britain.html#click=t.co/yVW3I3zaoy
mobile.twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/1017553972117344257

OhYouBadBadKitten · 13/07/2018 07:50

Forecast for protest day: slight chance of showers this evening. They may be heavy and thundery in nature. Hopefully the main protests will get away with it.

ohmymimi · 13/07/2018 08:04

'I actually told May how to do it but she didn't agree, she didn't listen to me. She wanted to go a different route. I would actually say that she probably went the opposite way." '

Newton Dunn missed a huge trick in not pressing Mr 'Art of the Deal' on exactly what he told May and how he would have negotiated Brexit.

ohmymimi · 13/07/2018 08:49

V. best cover of yesterday's HJC shitshow - Maddow on Strzok and the repug clown car crash 'n burn:

TheNorthWestPawsage · 13/07/2018 10:19

Nipped out of work to see the Trump Baby as it's only flying for 2 hours apparently. I'll be protesting later!

Our list of allies grows thin! Our list of enemies grows long! Trump thread continued.
Our list of allies grows thin! Our list of enemies grows long! Trump thread continued.
mackerella · 13/07/2018 11:12

Just seen one of the photos from yesterday's dinner that was in a link posted earlier. What is that on the May it's left arm? Her charging port?

Our list of allies grows thin! Our list of enemies grows long! Trump thread continued.
GetOrfMyBin · 13/07/2018 11:17

Mackerella - it’s for monitoring blood sugars. I believe TM is type 1 diabetic.

I am no TM fan but I would really appreciate her telling DT, after all he’s said about her and Boris making a good PM Hmm, to fuck off Grin

mackerella · 13/07/2018 11:27

Ah, you're right, GetOrf - didn't mean to be snarky.

Yes, I wish someone would tell him to fuck off - really hope HM will do so today à la Borowitz Report: Queen Elizabeth says bone spurs will prevent her from meeting Trump

TheNorthWestPawsage · 13/07/2018 12:29

I fully expect Trump to get some sort of back-handed compliment/insult in after his meeting with Liz. Even if it's the classic - "Great castle, Windsor! But why did the Brits build it so close to Heathrow? Sad!"

BolleauxtoBankers · 13/07/2018 12:58

A friend is watching the march live and I found it here, if you're interested:

I am amazed at the crowds, it looks massive!!

woman11017 · 13/07/2018 13:21

And this one for us.
@ValGillies
Women’s march ooking huge & loud from my office window at University of Westminster. #TrumpVisitUk
twitter.com/ValGillies/status/1017737318067855366

ohmymimi · 13/07/2018 13:22

Lawrence O'Donnell
@Lawrence
Looks like dress code defiance might not be Jim Jordan’s worst offense. (link: talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/jordans-boss-the-head-coach-admits-he-knew) talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/jordans… via @TPM
talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/jordans-boss-the-head-coach-admits-he-knew
mobile.twitter.com/Lawrence/status/1017616523823910912

ohmymimi · 13/07/2018 13:37

President Lincoln could not be reached for comment at this time:
@KevinMKruse
There's so much insanely wrong with this, I honestly don't even know where to begin.

'Mr. Trump added "You know, a poll just came out that am the most popular person the history of the Republican Party--92 per cent. Beating Lincoln. I beat Honest Abe."

mobile.twitter.com/KevinMKruse/status/1017568789540589573

AcrossthePond55 · 13/07/2018 13:47

There were no popularity polls in Lincoln's Day. Gallup (the biggest polltakers) started keeping track during the Truman Administration (ca 1945-46).

www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-lincoln-popular-poll_us_5b4823b8e4b0e7c958f9cc28

"I beat Honest Abe." Well, I know who Honest Abe would like to beat (the shit out of).

cozietoesie · 13/07/2018 13:51

I see that California exceeded its own green targets, Across. If true, then Well Done and Keep it Up.

ohmymimi · 13/07/2018 14:01

I'm not dentist and but I can read this Reps. body language. It says 'No clue what I'm spouting about, but my arrogance exceeds my brain power, so I've no clue I've no clue what I'm spouting about'. Tit.
PS - I'm not even a yank, and I know that the USA is considered both a Republic and a Representative Democracy (a term John Adams used, ircc)

All In w/Chris Hayes
@allinwithchris
GOP Rep.: "I'm a dentist, so I read body language very, very well" #inners
mobile.twitter.com/allinwithchris/status/1017565268569096192

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