To ask you to talk to me about Lord of the Flies?

[Chandlierheights]

It’s a book I’ve always fancied but never got round to reading till now. How in the name of God is it marketed as a kids’ book?!

It’s so brilliantly disturbing. I finished it a couple of days ago and can’t stop thinking it. Would the boys retain their hatred of Ralph once they’re on the boat that rescues them, or would they revert to the moral code they were raised with?

How did Piggy and Ralph get drawn into Simon’s murder?!

Please can we have a discussion about it? No one I know in real life has read it.

deadringer x post!

I read the boom for the first time 2 years ago. Whilst reading it was thinking of when doing psychology as part of my degree in the 90s, they spoke about group psychology and experiment of group camps in America in the 50s or 60s in which they put them into 2 teams, of course the 2 teams ended up hating one another. Agree that people are always picked on for being different even though Piggy was the most intelligent from what I remember. Yes it was a very disturbing book!

Book not boom!

I seem to remember reading a quote where Golding was asked if he felt sorry for the children. And he replied that, no, he felt sorry for the sailors.

(I think it was Golding, although part of my brain wants me to think it was Stephen King.)

www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/excerpts-from-the-all-girl-remake-of-lord-of-the-flies

I enjoyed this. Read LOTF for O level. A long, long time ago!

I too think that girls would end up murdering too. I don’t think there would be much difference in outcome. Perhaps it would take them longer to shed their socialisation, but I think a PP nailed it when they said it shows that humans are animals, and girls are animals too.

slightly at 11 yo reading thsi at school!

We did it for GCSE, and it was dark and disturbing for us at 15/16 yo

Perhaps what you can get from the difference in the C4 re-enactment of the Stanford expt is that there are so many variables that you simply cannot guarantee any outcome. I like to believe girls wouldn't get to murdering but it might well depend on the combination ...

I don't think Simon's murder is purely evil because the book is so allegorical that Simon has to be sacrificed to redeem them - he's a Christ figure so they're playing out their role in his sacrifice ... Only of course it doesn't work; you just end up with the feeling that religion is another failure for them. Still, Piggy's death is the one that breaks me every time.

Yes, I understand that the Stanford experiment is now mostly used to show group dynamics in action. The later experiment I think went wrong more because of individual power plays, but then perhaps that's why it's a bit like Lord of the Flies, showing how people get behind charismatic leaders in difficult situations and sometimes turn their own moral compasses as a result. It's not available anymore outside of educational settings (it was an Open University coproduction) but I remember it being a bit horrifying to watch unfold, and being quite glad it was stopped early.

We did Lord of the Flies in I think second year of high school, and I remember really getting into it. Later we did I'm the King of the Castle which was another children being nasty to each other narrative and that I remember being very upsetting (I think one child bullied the other to suicide).

I loved Lord of the Flies. I read it for my GCSE English and it completely captivated me!

I don’t blame that had there been only girls on the Island that it would have spiralled into murder but I do believe ostracisation would have occurred regardless.

However the idea of both boys and girls would have been a interesting one to run with but perhaps a little more disturbing...

I think Jack (Meredith) recognizes he can exert more power without being the figurehead who everyone relies on. Ralph can't live up to expectations and falls from favour, allowing Jack to be seen as necessary. Very common scenario in politics.

I only read it late last year. Picked it up in a charity shop and thought 'this is one of the books on my 'to do list'.

The end was quite traumatic. I was reading through fingers.

Lasting thoughts. Humans can be bloody horrid when they get the chance. People want to fit in. Nothing I didn't really know but the characters are well constructed and easy to connect with so although I wasn't surprised, I felt an emotional attachment that swept me along helplessly.

I haven’t read the full thread OP but as someone who has had to study genocide for work I can tell you it’s frighteningly accurate.

Get a nice accountant or housewife in the right circumstances and they WILL kill the neighbor they have lived next to for 20 years because of XYZ reason.

We all have that in us, given the right circumstances. It often comes down to a choice of kill or be killed and most choose self preservation. Some brave people have laid down their lives rather than take part.

Can I add Stephen Pinker's research. He's studied the human fossil record. It shows we are gradually become more peaceable to one another. It's a slow but undeniable trend. Hard to believe at times but his findings give me hope.

Great book!

While ‘The Island’ was highly edited and choose contestants for their clashing personalities rather then survival skills it was still interesting to see how the dynamics between the men and women differed. A number of the men at first seemed more concerned as to who was the leader over perhaps more important things like fire, food and shelter. The women generally seemed to work better together and passive aggressively pushed back against anyone who tried to step up as a leader.

I often think of LoF in relation to current affairs. When a country is under threat, there's a gravitation towards authoritarian, repressive leaders who will provide protection against the enemy. When there isn't an obvious enemy, such leaders create one and maximise fear to increase their power. e.g. Trump and Islamic terrorists, Mexican drug lords, 'rapists'. Orwell does this too in 1984. We see how Jack manipulates the idea of The Beast to increase his power.

I'm sorry but I think an all-girl society would eventually have ended up the same way. Think of 'Mean Girls'. There are physical fights in girls' schools and a lot more psychological nastiness.

I credit lotf with my obsession with no-adult scenarios. I really recommend the Gone series by Michael Grant and the Enemy series by Charlie Higson. Both include girls which I think does change the dynamic, there seems to be a bit more thinking things through and trying to establish rules etc than lotf. I think both series are a bit more positive in that the children manage to mostly hold on to their humanity despite the shit that is thrown at them. The gone series is to me a direct parallel to lotf, especially the central pair of Sam and Astrid - they are very like Ralph and piggy.

Just r-reading what Stephen King wrote in his foreword to one edition of the novel, and he paraphrases Golding as saying “The adults save the children, but who will save the adults?”

Whenever I teach it, students are always most struck by the “Maybe there’s a Beast...maybe it’s us” and the discussions that ensue about the essential illness of mankind are always very interesting.

With regard to whether the situation would have been different with girls - hard to say, but Golding is very clear that he thought it would have been, that woman are superior to men.

Here it is - Stephen King’s foreword.

The Butterfly Revolution by William Butler is a similar novel but with girls present. It's set in American summer camps in the late 1950s. I read it a few years after LoTF, it's not as beautifully written as Lord of the Flies but it's still quite affecting.

It is a powerful novel.

We read it in school in Yr 8 over 40 years ago. Funnily enough I was discussing it with school friends online last weekend.

I think it was the most disturbing story I have ever read. I remember Simon discovering the parachutist and desperately trying to tell the others. And the killing of Piggy and Simon.

I still find it hard to believe it was considered acceptable reading for 12/13 year olds!

I believe the idea was that they would revert back to civilisation now the rules were back in place. Golding wanted to portray the horror of war to his readers and how even the good do atrocious things in war. Possibly those who uncovered their inner darkness would have gone on to become a big part of the war raging in the world (if any of it was left after the atom bombs).
Piggy and Simon had to die as they symbolised restrictions on the savagery. Simon was the only true 'good' one on the island as he never does anything wrong and therefore he could be argued to symbolise a Jesus like figure (lots of religious imagery is used to describe him). Piggy was the voice of reason, the voice of adults so it was inevitable he would be killed.

I love this novel. Sadly our new HOD won't let me teach it anymore

This book and Graham Greene's Brighton Rock were our books for O level English Lit. Both were very good but disturbing.
stayed with me all these years and i need to read them again really!

Sadly our new HOD won't let me teach it anymore

Why??