Any senior civil servants around?

[ImSuchABigIdiot]

I know this is a bit of a random thread but I’ve recently started a junior role in the Civil Service (EO level) and would love to stay long-term if possible.

I read an article recently about Antonia Romeo, who’s now the Permanent Secretary at the Department for International Trade, and I have a bit of a girl crush on her!! I know she hasn’t always worked in the Civil Service, but I just feel so inspired by her and would love to try and get as I can in my career.

I’ve heard from a few different people in the Civil Service that it can be certain difficult to progress between grades though. How true is this? What have your experiences been? And is it difficult for women (and people who are not in the Civil Service Fast Stream) to progress?

In my experience so far, the Civil Service is a very fair employer and very focussed on equality and diversity, but I’d be interested to hear about all of your experiences.

*try and get as far as I can

Bump :)

Hi. I’ve worked in the Civil Service for 20 yrs in Whitehall policy departments and am now a Grade 6. My experience in the last few years is that talent is recognised and there are opportunities for people who are good and want to be stretched. I’ve worked with several good EOs/ HEOs who’ve been deservedly promoted in policy jobs within 18 months of joining and are doing really well in their new grades.

I may have been lucky but I haven’t experienced any discrimination and in recent years have always worked in Departments with many women in senior roles.

I'm a (male) SCS1 withblots of female colleagues and would suggest that there are some things you must do if you want to progess in the CS:

1. Lean in, take things in, put yourself and don't be the person who limits yourself to what you 'grade should do. To become the HEO/SEO/G6 etc you must be that person who already looks like them.

1. Network a lot. Join groups linked to your profession/dept etc. Join interest groups.

1. Volunteer for development opportunities (and make sure they are proper development) so look to cover holidays in private office or support any new initiatives or projects. Do some shadowing (call Antonia's office and see if you can do a week with them etc.

1. Focus on your development which may mean moving jobs regularly and bounce up the grads by having broad dept experience.

1. Be bold and ambitious...And know the right people.

Good luck.

"Hi. I’ve worked in the Civil Service for 20 yrs in Whitehall policy departments and am now a Grade 6"
Is that normal progression these days?

Honestly, I think it depends on where you are located. DH and I are both Civil Servants - I was on FS but DH wasn’t. He stayed at HEO for a while but then once he got motivated to progress he did HEO to G6 in 3/4 years. We’re both London-based though.
It’s harder if you’re out of London because (unless your somewhere with a big CS presence, and not a primarily operational one) then there will be fewer opportunities for progression, but it’s still far from impossible. So, to answer your question, no I don’t think it’s that difficult to progress, providing you have the drive.
PM me if you want to chat.

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Unless you’re somewhere - should really know to proof-read!

Are you a mother? Makes a difference. The women I know of in the SCS all got there before becoming a mother.

If you're prepared to put yourself forward for promotion & apply for new roles rather than expecting to be promoted in your current role, you can progress fairly fast provided you have the right skills. Progression tends to be much faster in London.

Thanks so much for your advice, everyone. This is all really helpful. I’m based in London at the moment.

I’m not a mother yet Loopy. I’m in my mid-twenties and would really like to have a family one day though.

I’m wondering how I can fit starting a family in with long-term career plans? Could anyone please advise on this? My department (and, I think, the Civil Service as a whole) do shared parental leave, which sounds like it would be really helpful.

I’m interested in working as a private secretary and for policy teams in the future.

I don't know how much things have changed since my day, but then certainly I think it would have been practically impossible to combine working in a private office with any sort of family life. But that was in the days of all night sittings.....so I am very out of date indeed!

Do Private Office work before you have children - it’s nearly impossible afterwards! There’s tonnes of flexibility in policy roles though - I went back PT after my first child and was able to work from home a bit too.

I started in the CS 10 years ago as an AO and am now G6, having had two children along the way. I did private office with both pregnancies (same stint but APS then PS) then went back into policy after second mat leave.

PP are right that you need to put yourself out there and have the right attitude and work to the next grade. Talent is rewarded, in my experience.

Have found working PT for the first time in this role hard as department I'm in is mostly young, unmarried 20 somethings who work long hours, that I can't and don't want to do any more.

Really interesting hearing people’s experiences of moving up within the civil service.
I have a policy background in the voluntary sector and would love to work in the civil service (DfE, DH or PHE) but haven’t managed to get through the sift for G7 roles on a couple of occasions due to the large no of applicants. Are there any other routes in I could consider?

My slightly out of date experience is that it’s more difficult for women, there is a glass ceiling still.
In many pockets there is still the perception that a woman with children is less reliable than a man with children.
It also is dependent on where you are located. If you are located in London it’s perceived to be easier to progress and there are more opportunities.

I found working in the civil service was very rewarding. It might sound twee but I felt I was helping society. There are opportunities but you need to put yourself out to take them and really put your career first.

Good luck, take every opportunity you can and keep adding to your skills where possible.

G5 here - it's bloody hard work but doable. Get as far as you can before children, it's easier to pick up after. Part-time or job share are available.

Being in London helps - I work between Sheffield, Leeds and London.....sad as it may be London is where the greater opportunities are.

Do you work within a policy team or are you based in a local office like a tax office or Jobcentre? If I'm a policy/head office role you'll find it easier to progress. Get linked in to the women's networking group, volunteer for stuff, eg helping arrange departmental conferences, representing the team/division/department at external events. And definitely get into Private Office and Press Office if you can, coveting for holidays is a good way of doing this. Also, don't be afraid to move around and work across Government - you pick up a lot of skills and contacts that way.

If in a local office, get the hell out!!

Aim to get as far as you can before having DC. Big step up in pay between HEO and grade 7.

Maternity pay is excellent. The time out isn’t the problem, the problem is working hours after DC, all else being equal the people who get the good roles and promotions are often those who work long hours and network, which is much harder working part time.

Bear in mind that the culture varies significantly from one department to another, and what you need to do to get promoted in one place might be different in another. Some departments (Home Office, MoD for example) can be very macho with a long hours culture. Some departments (DfE, DCMS for example) can be more accommodating to flexible working.

Children is the big issue - although the numbers of female SCS are creeping up, once you drill down into who has children and who doesn't, you'll soon see that there are really very few very senior women out there. It is changing, though, and hopefully will continue to do so.

Some jobs are just impossible to do with children unless you can somehow afford to have a live in nanny (private office, press office, legislation), but most policy jobs should have natural peaks and troughs and you can get incredibly efficient at getting your work to a place where you can do the school run...even if you then log on and do a few more hours again once the kids are in bed.

I got to G7 before I had DC then SCS after two stints of maternity leave, but I have colleagues who have raced through the grades to get to SCS earlier than me (though of course there's a risk in delaying DC in that it might not happen if it's left too late). I also have colleagues who deliberately had DC early in their career in order to be able to concentrate on work later on - this has also worked well for them, as they have made slower but steady progression.

Lots of women have left the civil service in the last five years, after waves of redundancy / early retirement / promotion freezes / pay freezes - it will be interesting to see what the landscape looks like in 15 years as the impact will be felt more keenly then

you'll soon see that there are really very few very senior women out there.

Should be

you'll soon see that there are really very few very senior women who are mothers out there.

Agree with what others have said above.

Also smiling to find myself on a thread with OlennasWimple as I’ve long admired your username from afar!

Agree with all the above (SEO) - there's a lot of interesting work and the one good thing I can say for Brexit is it's created a lot more civil service jobs, so why not join? Depending on area, flexible working is often a given, though at G7 and above that's often you being flexible and logging on anywhere, any time... which is why I haven't gone for it since I had child 2. Probably will try again soon if I find a good job and have the support in place to be fill time or nearly so.
It's certainly got a lot more senior women and middle-grade women than 15 years ago, and in many areas working part time is taken as the norm.

Gosh HettyB!

SCS place marking here to come back and say more after DD is in bed (lots of us have kids!).

But just to say - you sound great. I LOVE people like you and I think you have the right attitude to go far.