Any senior civil servants around?

[ImSuchABigIdiot]

I know this is a bit of a random thread but I’ve recently started a junior role in the Civil Service (EO level) and would love to stay long-term if possible.

I read an article recently about Antonia Romeo, who’s now the Permanent Secretary at the Department for International Trade, and I have a bit of a girl crush on her!! I know she hasn’t always worked in the Civil Service, but I just feel so inspired by her and would love to try and get as I can in my career.

I’ve heard from a few different people in the Civil Service that it can be certain difficult to progress between grades though. How true is this? What have your experiences been? And is it difficult for women (and people who are not in the Civil Service Fast Stream) to progress?

In my experience so far, the Civil Service is a very fair employer and very focussed on equality and diversity, but I’d be interested to hear about all of your experiences.

Which department do you work in OP? And where are you based? The MN collective might be able to help with shadowing, private office opportunities etc.

I'm DWP, Sheffield based but previously London, with a big network of contacts.

Thanks again everyone.

So is, say, aiming (eventually) for a job like Principal Private Secretary, for example, impossible if you have DC?

I’m at a very junior grade as I mentioned earlier (EO), but would be really keen to progress in the Civil Service and to have children.

For those of you in the Civil Service who have children, would you mind me asking how you manage please? How do you maintain a work-life balance?

Aww thanks so much, @Rainatnight! :) That’s really cheered me up :)

AHedgehog thanks so much :) I’m an EO and based at DfE in London.

In my role, I deal with policy teams and Private Offices daily, which made me interested in finding out if there might be any opportunities to shadow them. At the moment, my line manager thought it would be best for me to look into shadowing a policy team first and then to get more experienced in my current role before shadowing a Private Office.

Principal PS would be very difficult indeed to do with DC IMO.

If you have no policy experience yet, but have passed probation, why not apply for policy roles, and learn on the job? (Rather than shadowing)

It's impossible to be a PPS if you have any responsibilities which mean that you can't do 12 hour days Mon-Fri and also take calls at the weekend (weekends and holidays are usually on a rota basis between all private office staff, but if something goes really badly you can expect to get a call at the very least and possibly need to drop everything and work remotely or at the office - you get an additional allowance because of this)

Everyone juggles work life balance differently, but I found that having certain days where I had to leave the office 5pm sharp and certain days where I could stay as late as necessary helped immensely. It shouldn't be this way, but being seen in the office after hours helps dispel the "mothers aren't really dedicated to the job" myth. (I know - I can hear myself groaning at what I just wrote)

Also, working from home one day a week is great for keeping at least vaguely in touch with the school - depends on your commute, but even getting a couple of hours extra work done rather than sitting on a train can be helpful

Having said that...the more senior you are, the more likely that you can have access to a work laptop and / or Blackberry (yes, Blackberry - better security than Apple products, so the CS remains in the technological dark ages....) So having a commute that gives 30 mins unbroken time is pretty useful for scrolling through emails, replying to stuff and getting ahead of the day before you get into the office. And at the end of the day, still being in contact when emails are still flying around also helps you manage the work but also avoid the "not really able to do the job after having children" suspicions. They are a double-edged sword, but I couldn't work full time and have DC without a Blackberry

One more thought, that's not something that you can do OP but maybe one day when you are a Perm Sec

I've tried to normalise having DC. Everyone knows that I have them - I don't flaunt them, or plaster the desk in photos, but I've never made any secret that, say, no meetings can go into the diary after 5pm on a Monday because I won't be there. (Here's a secret - the more senior you get, the more control you have over your diary...). I have also spoken to ministers, very senior CS, very senior police etc with DC noise in the background - if you call me at 11am on a Sunday morning, I am probably stood on the side of a rugby pitch watching my DC practice, and although I'm happy to take the call I won't pretend that I dont' have a life outside of work.

It's very helpful that ministers are getting younger, more likely to have DC themselves, and also for men to be more involved in family life than previously. I took DS --to show him off - into the office soon after he was born and he needed to be fed. I was BFing him when a minister came by looking for someone else - he stopped, sat next to me, had a chat, tickled DS's foot and then stood up, got me a glass of water and walked off. I don't think that would have happened in the pre-Blair days TBH!

PPs would be nigh on impossible for a parent without the other parent being a SAH, or a live in nanny.

There are loads of interesting jobs that ARE possible with DC. I’ve mainly worked in policy.

You’re mid-20s so could certainly do private office at assistant PS level in your 20s.

If you’ve passed probation you could start applying for other EO and HEO roles in the same department. That’s what lots of people coming in at EO tend to do.

Thanks so much Civil, Bertrand, Olenna and everyone else who’s posted :) I’m really grateful for all of your advice.

I haven’t yet passed my probation as I’ve only been in my current role for a couple of months.

I’d definitely be interested in applying for new roles after the probation period’s up though.

Would you suggest that I prioritise applying for roles with policy teams or with Private Offices?

I only ask because I was under the impression that you need a bit of experience before going into a Private Office role, so I should maybe I should wait a couple of years before applying and try for a policy role first.

But then, based on your advice on here, it seems that it would be useful to have worked in a Private Office before having DC, so I’m a bit unsure about whether to focus on applying for Private Office or policy.

Just another thought as well - I’ve looked into the Civil Service mentoring scheme but haven’t contacted any mentors yet. Would any of you recommend the mentoring service as a way of getting advice and guidance on Civil Service career development?

Thanks so much again for all of your help!

OP we may be colleagues (I'm a G7). Apply for the positive action pathway when it reopens. It is really good and managers are usually quite supportive, it works well with the talent grid. Look at the EOI page on the intranet and apply to do a placement at HEO. If you PM me I can put you in touch with people in the executive agencies to arrange shadowing, it is useful to have an understanding of the operational delivery side of the house as well as policy. Sign up for a mentor on the mentor matching scheme, and also make sure you are a member of the yammer groups because that's how understudying in Private Office is now advertised. Finally, network loads across the other offices as well as in London because you never know when knowing someone can come in handy.

I joined the CS 10 years ago as an EO when DS was 8. I work in SB twice a week, but EP the rest of the time. I've totally outed myself now but I haven't found that my family life has suffered at all, I am encouraged to work from home and since DH has been diagnosed with cancer the Dept has been amazingly kind and understanding. I think our perm sec is a bit of a dude.

Yes, the ideal pathway into PO would be to become a policy expert in a particular area and then do the corresponding PO post covering that area (the PPS covers everything, but APSs will each take a different policy area to lead on). This is both because you will have contacts to draw on, but also because then you will know when you are being fed nonsense from your erstwhile policy colleagues...

AndNone's advice about joining a scheme is good - another one to look for (if it's still going) is the Crossing Thresholds one, which is about getting over the big hurdles like SEO to G7 and G6 to SCS. Also, if you identify a good (preferably female) SCS in a different line management chain to you, think about asking if she would be an informal mentor for you. It's invaluable to have a RL sounding board for questions and queries about how to progress and handle the quirks of the CS

It's been a very long time but I still miss the inside track to what was going on in politics that you get in a PO..........

I would head for policy. The only role in private office likely to be realistic straight from your current one is diary secretary, which is a hard role, and mainly admin.

It is harder to get promoted after DC, so if things go well you could aim to get to grade 7 before you have DC. Makes a big difference to maternity pay too.

I do know one person who was promoted to G7 at DfE after DC. She worked full time and really long hours.

G7 here. I'd echo building your networks, experience and trying to get promotions before DC, as it's just harder afterwards (nothing to do with CS as an institution, which is v accommodating in my experience, just your time/energy/ability to flex is all curtailed).

For PO experience look at covering leave and try to do a couple of week/fortnight stints which also build experience. Will also help you decide if you want to apply for posts there longer term (you don't have to do private office to progress).

Flexible working is big benefit of CS with things like flexitime, working from home, compressed hours, part-time work etc offered as default. DfE has an active jobshare network. There's also a women's network so check that out.

Take up as many offers of training, learning and development, shadowing opportunities etc as possible. Not all training needs to be costly and it's looking for those other opportunities to grow and develop. Again I find this harder post DC as I'm now part-time and need to work v particular hours and have limited time in the office for meetings, so I end up having to focus on my actual job / meetings most of the time I am in the office. L&D has definitely taken a back seat, many of my best competency examples are quite dated as I've had time out for mat leave / career breaks, and I'm struggling to progress to the next grade now.

Hi everyone, your advice has been brilliant - thanks! Just bumping for any further advice or input that people might have :)

Hi. Civil service is great for supporting flexible working and I echo everything others have said.
Not trying to put you off but there’s a few things to be aware of.
The “ network “ is really valuable. It definitely works to have as wide a network as possible etc. But be prepared for it to equally work against you. That promotion you worked hard for, have all the right skills and experience etc can often go to somebody who knows somebody. I know it happens in private sector too, I’m just saying the CS isn’t immune to it.
I’d recommend getting some operational experience too. I find the SCS I admire the most are the ones that can demonstrate a 360 degree view.
You do take some bashing! Maybe not personally but it can be hard to see and hear negative criticism in the media etc about your work ( often without the true picture).And sometimes it can be hard working on something you don’t personally agree with but you have to support the government of the day.
Finally, some ministers can be right tossers but you knew that anyway didn’t you!😀

I’m based in one of the regions and most of our SCS are female (with children). I’m currently grade 6 and found networking and bigger picture thinking to be key to my promotion (I joined 3 years ago as a grade 7). To be honest I’m currently not looking for further progression, internal promotion to SCS1 would result in about £6k pay rise for an awful lot more responsibility. My current role is incredibly flexible, which means I can balance family and career. I’m incredibly lucky and love my job.

Thanks MrsGrindah!

What do you mean by operational experience please?

I'm a G6 in a policy role in the centre (by which I mean Cabinet Office/No 10/HMT). There are a not a lot of parents below SCS where I am but that may be something to do with the notorious youth of the centre. Flexible working is supported, but the hours are long and can fluctuate a lot if you work in a very political environment - I effectively work private office hours for certain periods of the year even though I am not actually in private office (I do get to claim flexi back though). Policy roles in main departments outside the centre tend to be really good for flexible working and mostly sensible hours.

About progression: not true that you can't progress if you have the ability and the drive. One of the best G6s I know entered as an EO. If you want to progress then all of the above about heading for policy and seizing opportunities to show you have ideas and to take on greater responsibility whenever you can is good advice. Would also recommend sticking to core departments rather than agencies, although it is useful to have a sense of what it's like to work in a regional office or a very operational organisation as that is where most civil servants work. Spending some time in the centre is also very good for progression.

Senior officials' PO is typically better hours and more flexible than Ministerial PO - I know a Perm Sec's head of office who has a young child and works part time. You can learn an awful lot from working closely with senior officials. I think working as a PS or APS to a policy DG (which are typically G7/HEO roles) is quite a good role as you get the senior exposure but it's still quite policy oriented and not as intense as Ministerial PO.

By operational roles I mean roles that are actually directly involving the delivery of your department .. often called “ frontline” services. It’s not essential, but I do find people in policy roles can often be more connected to the reality of how their dept can deliver if they have had some first hand experience.

Thanks MrsGrindah - could you give an example of a role that could be a frontline or operational service?

My experience was bad but my specialist area in my department was run by a dinosaur who expected 100% presenteeism and made life very difficult for me after I had DC. Very very few of the senior women in my old department had young children. Some had grown up children. I got out as soon as I could after I realised it was not the place to be if you were a woman with a young family.

I'd always wanted to work in the public sector and the work itself could be very cutting edge and I interesting but I became disillusioned with the endless corporate initiatives and the time I was expected to spend doing those instead of my actual job. I felt like I was drowning in a huge faceless bureaucracy at times and prefer my current role - still public sector and challenging but smaller and more niche.

Anyway - that was my experience but as others have said there is a lot of variation beyween departments and I may have just been unlucky. I hope you have a more positive experience than me.

Well it will change from Dept to Dept but it might be a call centre operative/ team leader, a face to face customer service role, managing an office/ site etc. You have to do the research on the departments you are working/ want to work in. Look up the Operational Delivery Profession on civil service learning for more ideas.

Frontline or operational services include things like making decisions on benefits applications,, deciding visa applications, answering calls in the HMRC service centre (or managing the teams that do so)

Frontline experience makes you a better policy wonk because you understand how it might be easy enough to say "the requirements for X should be Y because that meets our policy objective of Z", but following on from that there will be cascades of operational advice that needs to be written, likely additional staff training, and quite probably some unintended consequences.

Non fast stream EO to scs is virtually impossible in the current civil service. You may want to look at the in-service fast stream.