Grenfell firefighters

[longwayoff]

I am feeling very sad for the brave firefighters who arriving at Grenfell, must have known that it was going to be beyond them yet did the best they could as they always do. Listening to some of their testimony is heartbreaking, what an impossible task they faced that night. I'm sure this will haunt all of them. My concern is that there will be an attempt to offload blame onto the fire service for the unavoidable deaths which happened due to the complete failure of the local authority with regard to its tenant responsibilities. If this occurs, how can we support them?

There is a difference between firefighters and the fire service. The evidence today strongly suggests know issues with radios hampered things. Better communication between those inside and outside could well have made a difference.
Many of the posters on this thread appear to consider the enquiry a waste of time as they know who is fully responsible - please could you introduce yourselves to the enquiry, give evidence and save everyone time and money.

Just saw a firefighter on the bbc news, he went into that burning building just to find a 12 year old girl and he tried twice but was unsuccessful and he was on the stand in tears. He deserves a medal

www.channel4.com/news/revealed-internal-emails-show-council-chaos-in-the-wake-of-grenfell-disaster

carol im well aware that t the fire service and the firefighters on the ground are two different things.

Two posts from Grenfell Thread Six which demonstrates the fact that im aware of this.

MissEliza Wed 27-Jun-18 21:55:16

These you're right. The matter really is quite simple.
When my neighbour converted her loft, I'm positive she told me she had to have sprinklers fitted. Why on earth aren't they fitted in multi storey buildings? People who work in social housing and the fire service have told me there's a risk tenants will tamper with them. So what? angry
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HelenaDove Wed 27-Jun-18 22:12:18

"People who work in social housing and the fire service have told me there's a risk tenants will tamper with them"

This is the kind of attitude that causes a lot of these problems.

Tenants are no more likely to tamper with them than a home owner is.

If people in the fire service are saying this about social housing tenants generally (id expect it from those who work in housing as it seems to be a pre requisite for the job) maybe (but obvs we dont know for sure) it was said about the Grenfell residents.............more will probably become clear as the enquiry
continues.

It still stinks that Micheal Dowden is being questioned in this way before the contractors.

Honestly though one minute tenants are poor people who are all as thick as shit ..............the next we are all potential criminal masterminds.

The goalposts seem to move depending on which denigration towards tenants certain organizations and/or individuals want to use in any given week.

yes i saw that carol

a lad i went to school with is a firefighter . He gets frustrated with the "higher ups"

Mmm. I'm sure they could afford those high spec radios following the massive budget cutswhich libertarians like carol love so much

There's no blame for the firefighters but there are three issues:

1. The flammable cladding and who okayed it.
2. It's thought 'Stay Put' policy may have meant more casualties. I was on 19th floor of an office building and told stay put theres a fire. 5mins later 18ft flames shot up past my bosses window from window the floor below. My boss said "time to leave". We all did. Approx 60% people in the building ignored the stay put. If that fire hadn't been put out so swiftly, my floor would have been inescapable in minutes.
3. Twice now re London Tower fires, fire chiefs said the fire was 'unusual' in its behaviour. Perhaps instead of a 'standard' set procedure , they need to factor in more that illegal flammable material/building structure/wind direction/unusually hot weather may be at play and adapt and tailor procedures accordingly.

Cheapest bid wins isn't how it works at all. For something like this you would say that the product has to adhere to certain safety standards and also assess them on things like timescales, product guarantees etc. It is not all about price, that's just one element of it.

www.itv.com/news/2017-06-15/grenfell-tower-original-proposed-contractor-was-dropped-to-reduce-cost-of-refurbishment-project/

Thanks Ken. That obviously worked really well.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/29/grenfell-firefighter-attempt-rescue-girl-20th-floor-david-badillo

From Twitter.

Nearly Legal
‏ @nearlylegal
20m20 minutes ago

I’ve been avoiding, by and large, commenting on the Grenfell Inquiry. There are reasons for that. Partly because my firm is acting. But also because it will be a long process. Thinking that blame is being ascribed on the basis of each day’s evidence is not right.

Nearly Legal
‏ @nearlylegal
18m18 minutes ago

There may be lessons for many. Training, awareness, process, lack of information. And those need to be drawn out. But phase 1 of the Inquiry (rightly or wrongly) is focussed on the events of the night. Phase 2 - what lead up to that night - should deal with other issues.

Nearly Legal
‏ @nearlylegal
16m16 minutes ago

In short, there is a long way to go, and the focus will shift. And it seems from even the initial experts’ reports that there will be a lot of explaining for some people to do in phase 2 - the how did the tower end up like this stage.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/28/private-high-rise-towers-flammable-cladding-grenfell

THIS DOCUMENT. Myatts Field North refurb.

www.geog.leeds.ac.uk/fileadmin/documents/research/pfisocialhousing/MFN_PFI_Refurb_Experiences_Report.pdf
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HelenaDove Fri 14-Jul-17 22:10:33

Residents were told to remove their pets, but no compensation was offered to cover the
costs involved.
 No consideration was given to residents who worked night shifts.
 Workers used electricity paid for by of residents, without offering compensation.
 Doors were left open and residents were able to wander in unchallenged by workers
who did not know them.
 Quality alterations that residents had already made to their homes were ripped out to
make way for inferior alternatives.
 Supposedly completed electrical rewiring was found to be substandard and occasionally
dangerous.
 Supposedly completed pipe works and its housing were found to be substandard.
 In some homes, odd sized radiators and kitchen unit doors had been fitted.
 Flooding in one home had been caused by an unsupervised apprentice.
 Households were left overnight without running water or a toilet.
 At least one resident was left without electricity for a whole weekend.
 Some workers were found to be abusive, bullying and inconsiderate, especially towards
elderly or otherwise vulnerable residents.
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HelenaDove Tue 12-Jun-18 18:10:02

HelenaDove Fri 21-Jul-17 16:39:36

peoplevspfi.org.uk/2017/07/21/myatts-field-north-regeneration-a-pfi-horror-show/
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HelenaDove Fri 21-Jul-17 19:50:21

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/21/the-real-cost-of-regeneration-social-housing-private-developers-pfi?CMP=share_btn_fb
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HelenaDove Fri 21-Jul-17 19:52:14

"Hodkinson carried out a qualitative survey of 14 homes refurbished by Rydon that had been the subject of a huge number of complaints. Showers were fitted next to electric fans. A toilet was installed so close to a wall that you could only sit on it sideways. Some households went for days without electricity and weeks without cooking facilities. Cupboards were fitted with wrongly size doors. Tenants who complained reported that they were treated dismissively. One remembered the site supervisor saying to him, “It ain’t Chelsea, mate.” Regenter’s out-of-hours emergency line linked to the wrong database, so callout engineers weren’t available. The striking thing was how long problems could drag out: one family’s flat was flooded in January 2014, and repairs weren’t even scheduled till September. Two years later, their flat still hadn’t been fully repaired and redecorated. Even at the most straightforward level, the work wasn’t done to a decent standard.

When approached for comment, Rydon said that since the complaints were made, three years ago, attempts have been made to remedy the problems. They said the comments were not reflective of most of the residents, and that there was a good level of satisfaction among the residents now.

For tenants with more complicated requirements, the situation was worse. The Cifuentes family, one of whom used a wheelchair, was left without ramps, hoists or any means of escape in a fire, and without a lock on the front door. Repairs were so slow and haphazard that, at one point, the family had to move out for over a month, and the disabled member could only have his needs met by going into a respite unit – whereupon they were threatened with losing their carer’s allowance, their disability allowance and their car."

Im up VERY late currently watching the Review of the Building Regulations meeting on BBC Parliament which took place on Wednesday.

Whats going on up in Salford.............i got a real sense of deja vu seeing this tweet.

twitter.com/Bettytoo22/status/1013004051200528384

this is related to that tweet.

salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=2390

twitter.com/Bettytoo22/status/1013853927576625154

"Electricity surges in Sprucecourt @PendletonTHG blame my cooker @Beko came out said nothing wrong with my cooker.left with a bill of £183.I cant afford it.#Pendletontogether refuse to admit electrical faults in spruce #GrenfellTower had same problem"

camdennewjournal.com/article/breaking-fire-hits-multiple-flats-at-new-build-block-in-west-hampstead

amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/04/grenfell-tower-firefighter-inquiry?__twitter_impression=true

HelenaDove Wed 18-Jul-18 18:31:38

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/18/grenfell-police-carry-out-three-interviews-under-caution?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet
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HelenaDove Wed 18-Jul-18 18:33:29

"Detectives investigating the Grenfell Tower fire have conducted three interviews under caution over potential offences relating to the disaster – including manslaughter.

“The police investigation into the Grenfell Tower fire has moved to a new phase with a planned programme of interviews under caution,” Scotland Yard said in a statement on Wednesday, adding that more interviews would take place in the coming weeks.

The interviews, carried out since late June, came as detectives investigated possible charges of gross negligence manslaughter, corporate manslaughter and breaches of the Health and Safety Act relating to the fire last summer that killed 72 people.

A spokeswoman for the Metropolitan police said the force would not confirm whether three separate suspects had been interviewed, or whether the same suspect had been interviewed more than once.

No one has been arrested for offences relating to the fire itself, though individuals who allegedly falsely claimed to have lived in the tower to receive compensation have been arrested on suspicion of fraud.

Yvette Williams from the campaign group Justice4Grenfell said she welcomed the development in the investigation.

But she added: “It’s unfortunate that it’s taken months after it happened, because if it had been somebody responsible like a member of the public, they would have been called in in June last year.
Guardian Today: the headlines, the analysis, the debate - sent direct to you

“But we do look forward to the police doing a thorough investigation and that they are already thinking ahead in terms of gross manslaughter charges can only be a positive thing.”

Officers have spent the last year scouring the tower for forensic evidence and plan to hand back control of the building to Kensington and Chelsea council in early August.

Commander Stuart Cundy said: “The handover of Grenfell Tower by the police will only occur once we are entirely confident that all police work has been completed at the tower and handing the tower over to the responsible body will have no bearing on the ongoing criminal investigation.

“The concerns of the bereaved, survivors and residents as well as the wider community will be central to how the handover takes place. We recognise this will be a significant milestone and one that is bound to stir a range of emotions for all those affected by this tragedy.

www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=4617

I thought the way Dowden was questioned was blatantly hunting for a scapegoat. It was absolutely disgusting. Thankfully the Fire Brigades Union put out a statement supporting him.

I suppose an inquiry has to examine service response, but they did not start the fire. When does the examination of the building work and shoddy industry practices start?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/18/real-grenfell-scandal-72-people-died-cladding-privatisation