Grenfell firefighters

[longwayoff]

I am feeling very sad for the brave firefighters who arriving at Grenfell, must have known that it was going to be beyond them yet did the best they could as they always do. Listening to some of their testimony is heartbreaking, what an impossible task they faced that night. I'm sure this will haunt all of them. My concern is that there will be an attempt to offload blame onto the fire service for the unavoidable deaths which happened due to the complete failure of the local authority with regard to its tenant responsibilities. If this occurs, how can we support them?

The stay put policy assumes a normal building
Not one covered in flammable materials

Lessons will be learned and trust me the FF are the ONLY people to
Come Out of this with decency and honour

I also got the impression that there was an attempt to shift blame onto the fire service. Essentially their policies were wrong and they weren't flexible in adapting to the situation.

Which would be salient points IF the building materials had been what they should have been: inflammable. It's like the titanic: unsinkable so not enough lifeboats. The building was supposed to be inflammable. The staircases weren't wide enough to have people evacuate safely AND have firefighters go up. All towers like that were supposed to be inflammable so they didn't spend their time training for an inflammable building catching fire from flammable materials.

If an inflammable building goes on fire, it's not the fire service's fault. And I hope everybody sees that.

Thank you for the links Helena. I'm glad that there's a solid cohesive resistance to the inevitable smear campaign that will only intensify once the inquiry nears its end. The Hillsborough approach hasn't worked so far; hopefully blame will be placed on those who brought about this horror. Doubt it though.

I also got the impression that there was an attempt to shift blame onto the fire service. Essentially their policies were wrong and they weren't flexible in adapting to the situation.

Which would be salient points IF the building materials had been what they should have been: inflammable.

Those can be salient points regardless of the building itself. It is possible the fire service could have been better at what they did. That doesn’t mean there is no other blame or that they are the cause of the tragedy. But an enquiry like this one ought to pick up on all the areas that have room for improvement. The fire service, by their nature, will come across lots of situations where things have not gone the way they were anticipated to. If it’s found that there is a better way for them to respond then it is good that that is exposed so they can improve and it would be tragic for them not to learn lessons from this and to have that result in more loss in the future. That the inquiry might find areas of improvement for the fire service does not necessarily mean they are being thrown under the bus.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-inquiry-failing-fire-safety-checks-high-rise-michael-dowden-a8415861.html

Why do you think the fire service is entirely without blame?

Who signed off the works at Grenfell? They only time I heard anything that sounded like blaming was that they put out the fire went and then it restarted? I don’t t even think that that was true

I don’t think the fire service are to blame- the people at blame are the ones who covered/ordered a tower full of people in combustible cladding that went up like petrol

I do think though even as an untrained person that it was clear the stay put policy had failed within 20 minutes- ie the time it took for that fire to cover from bottom to top of that tower

I have some experience of fire safety in large buildings and I do think it’s unusual that the fire brigade didn’t know what they were facing at Grenfell.
Usually the fire service make regular visits to large buildings to plan what they would do in case of a fire and this plan is actioned when there is one (this is the whole principle of stay put- that the fire service know where to rescue people from because they have been involved in forming the policy in the first place)

It appears that despite the refurb being finished months before, this planning hadn’t taken place.

In the climate of cheapest is the best policy this sort of tradgy will happen again and again until the government stops the current bidding process of cheapest bid wins. Because all that does is promotes cost cutting and corner cutting practices which has been shown to be dasterous.

The firefighters faced an impossible task with bravery. I hope they are getting psychological support

YY worridmum. Anything else is deflection.

www.constructionenquirer.com/2018/03/09/grenfell-contractor-rydon-post-9m-profit/

I thought the fire service had a role in signing off the works on the tower as safe. If so, then some questions need to be asked about why it was considered safe and whose job it was to know that it wasn't.

www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/breaking-fire-breaks-out-in-high-rise-flats-in-mile-end/29/06/

skwawkbox.org/2018/06/29/dramatic-video-as-firefighters-battle-mile-end-tower-block-blaze/

Yes glintandglide as already mentioned they did have a plan entailing entering a non flammable tower block and fighting a compartmentalised fire in one flat. Due to the atrocious changes in the building - flammable exterior, failed compartmentalisation which funnelled the flames upward - the firefighters could not implement it.

Totally agree. They’re looking for a scapegoat

Firefighters put their lives on the line and did their utmost they should all be honoured for bravery, there will be a nationwide outcry if they are blamed for someone else's cost cutting incompetence.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/grenfell-inquiry-firefighter-david-badillo-jessica-urbano-ramirez_uk_5b362d1de4b0f3c221a00b9c

Who is 'they'

It looks to me like they are hoping that if they scapegoat the firefighters .........that the result of this will be that the general public blame the scapegoating on the residents so that the Grenfell residents lose public sympathy and support.

The residents will never lose my support Helena and yes I think you're right about the scapegoating

No-ones doubting that the firefighters on the night were brave.

But.

Being a firefighter is not just about bravery. Its also about competence. If poor decisions were made on the night, if the correct training wasnt given, if the eqjipment wasn't right, if the systems in place to assess fire safety in buildings weren't followed- then we need to know. It's not about scapegoating.

They wont be losing mine either.

That sounds appalling helena but after seeing the unedifying response of the local authority following the fire, nothing would surprise me. I was under the impression that local authorities all have to have a 'borough plan' in place assuring a coordinated response in the event of an air crash or terrorist attack. If that was K&Cs borough plan in action lets hope that other LAs have something more competent in place. Perhaps each LA should publish them so that residents and businesses know how they fit into them. Cant help feeling that we probably dont.