to be confused by newborn suffocating during breastfeed? :(

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www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/28/parents-suing-nhs-newborn-suffocated-breast-feed-due-negligent/

Would like to get other people's views on this situation? As someone who has breastfed, I'm really confused and saddened by this situation. However, I'm not convinced the midwife is to blame either

Sorry I realise she isn’t a bereaved mother, but she is obviously grieving what could have been.

They’re looking for someone to cover their DD’s care costs, if you mean the motivation for suing.

I think there is a lot more to the story than is being reported.

And it shouldn't have been made public.

Poor little girl deserves her privacy.

The article stated that the baby needed help breathing after she was born so there may have been an underlying problem

If this was the first feed she would usually still have had one to one care (though not always) , but ime the mw would be under pressure to get all notes etc done to transfer to pn ward within 2 hours. Glint I don't know what the ratios are where your sister is but don't forget on pn each dyad is 2 patients, many are post surgical or babies requiring extra monitoring and there is new parenting support - it can't be done.

This is desperately tragic. I don't think anyone is to blame. Babies generally will come off if struggling to breathe but common sense needs to be applied. They are probably suing to get their child state of the art secure care for life and I can't say I wouldn't do the same. If anything positive comes from it perhaps hospitals will start instructing staff to stay and support the first feed instead of doing paperwork.

In common with @Plantlover I was worried about suffocating my eldest but the me kept telling me I couldn't suffocate him by bf. I was flipping terrified.

It's common sense that you would make sure your baby could breathe while breastfeeding. Do you really need to be told that? I think most mother's would instinctively know to position baby in a way that keeps their nose clear. I have big boobs and I made sure when baby was latched that her nose was clear.

Sounds like she was holding baby by the head into position so would have stopped baby from being able to move away to breathe. It's pretty sad. Not midwife's fault. Could have been related to the issues that happened at birth with baby breathing. Perhaps the babys breathing should have been monitor a bit closer after the complications at birth?

This is key

“Cerys was delivered in the hospital’s birthing pool, but received emergency first aid immediately afterwards to help her breathe spontaneously before she was handed to Mrs Geis-Clements, the court heard.”.

A healthy baby would lift their head away from the breast if they were struggling to breathe. A healthy baby while unable to fully support their head, absolutely can “bob” on and off the breast. You’d have to be laying on top of them to smother them.

It sounds as if the baby was already compromised from birth and that this second collapse may even have been completely incidental to the breastfeed.

Nevertheless, arguably because the baby had very recently needed resus at birth, then the midwife really shouldn’t have left them for any length of time.

However that doesn’t mean they are liable for causing the cardiac arrest. More that had they been in the room then they baby might have been resuscitated (second time) faster and suffered fewer disabilities as a result.

Has it even been established that the baby definitely suffocated directly as a result of breastfeeding?

A healthy baby would lift their head away from the breast if they were struggling to breathe. A healthy baby while unable to fully support their head, absolutely can “bob” on and off the breast. You’d have to be laying on top of them to smother them.

There was some back and forth in the testimony about whether or not the MW had told them to support the head and whether she’d told them NOT to press the back of the baby’s head into the breast.

So it seems clear that that’s what the mother was actually doing. The baby cat bob backwards if their head is being forced forwards into the breast. Poor love.

It's not about being told. I'd been in labour 3 days, emcs and the mw shoved him in while I was reeling from it all. I said I was worried he couldn't breathe and was told babies won't suffocate when bf. Couldn't easily reposition as still had drips in both hand and spinal still effective. Asked for more help in subsequent feeds and mws 'too busy'. He was on the bottle within 12 hours of being home.

The first thing the midwife (who delivered our baby) and I noticed was that my gigantic breasts were going to be an issue with feeding. So she showed me how to position my fingers and breasts to keep our baby's nostril clear.

Had she not though, common sense would have prevailed.

Babies noses are designed to lie flat and for them to breath through the small creases at the side created when flat against the breast. However they do need to be able to move their heads back if the breast is occluding the airway completely. More likely to happen in bigger floppier breasts as they can fold over and around the nose if that makes sense.

For every woman who wants the midwife to stay and observe and assist there is the woman who wants the midwife to bog off to let her get on with it so the new family have time to bond. It’s difficult. And there are so many other pressures on the midwives time. And I know that isn’t ideal. I’ll always try and stay to observe the baby to latch on but a first feed can last upwards of an hour. It’s not practical to watch the whole thing.

That’s not say this story isn’t desperately sad. I jut don’t think the midwife can be blamed.

Seafoodeatit why comment without bothering to read the article?

Very sad situation, but parents are being a bit grabby here, as PP have explained the NHS can’t explain every single last thing you shouldn’t be doing with a baby when it’s just plain common sense! They wouldn’t have the time and few people would want to be babied like that, imagine the response from most mothers to a midwife saying ‘make sure baby can breathe!’?

I think it’s shameful they’re trying to get money out of this tbh.

I get why they’re suing. Their daughter will need life long care. That is expensive. Unfortunately the UK doesn’t have a ‘no blame’ pot of cash for parents in this situation to access so this is the only way they can attempt to secure their child’s future.

I had no bloody idea how to BF. First baby, horrible messy delivery with trauma. Moved to ward whilst spinal was still effective, after my husband had been sent home.
I had to drag my baby to the hospital bed, and guess how to BF. Nobody came to help. It was shit, and I was scared. I held my baby all night, because I couldn't risk moving.
I then co-slept with 3 babies. Current advice states that it is terrible, but it worked for me.
My lovely friend had complications, an emergency section, and a DC with CP. She did not get the opportunity to BF, and her child has great difficulties. She has gone on to have 2 NT children, none of which were BF.
It is horrible for the family, but I don't think the midwife was to blame.
So sad for all involved.

I was also told by a MW that babies can’t suffocate breastfeeding. I have big boobs and had expressed a concern, this was her response.

I have to say I did not believe her as it is quite obvious that it could happen - probably not common but definitely possible, as clearly anything which can block baby’s nostrils and mouth can suffocate them.

BUT if you were exhausted, maybe under effect of drugs, you might just take the reassurance without really questioning.

Very sad. Don’t think people should be too harsh on the parents. Unlikely case would be going forward if there wasn’t some likelihood of success in the action. Sounds like their kid has very significant needs, no wonder they feel they should attempt to secure funds to meet them.

And while the NHS is wonderful we need to stop the whole thing of pretending it, and its staff, are beyond reproach and accountability. It’s just not the case. No doubt lack of resource doesn’t help but they still need to be held to appropriate standards. Litigation is the only meaningful way of doing this in many cases as the internal processes for complaints are atrocious and there is a major ass covering culture.

I feel for the parents and totally understand their actions, because it's natural to want to look around and find something to blame when something devastating happens to your child. But I think it's almost impossible that the baby being held too closely to the breast could have caused this. Shame on the newspaper for reporting it in such an alarmist way, TBH.

I did notice they included a statement from a doctor but right at the end: The cause of Cerys’ oxygen starvation was probably a “random post-natal sudden collapse” which could not have been foreseen and in which negligence played no part, he told the court.

As others have pointed out this baby had difficulties breathing at birth which could have caused a weakness which might not be present in the majority of babies. I suppose it's possible that in these circumstances, restricted access to oxygen might have been more risky than for most babies?

I have to say I always thought that babies couldn't suffocate while breastfeeding and I do struggle to see how they could? That's why newborns have such wide, flat noses. Maybe I'm just unfamiliar with the dynamics of different shaped breasts to my own but I can't see how you'd be able to get them to latch if they were really so smushed in that their airways were blocked. Even newborns have a breathing reflex to open their mouths if they can't breathe through their nose, because they do it constantly when they have a cold/stuffy nose and unlatch every time - so you'd have to really be holding them extremely tightly against the breast, which seems like a strange thing for somebody to do.

Either way it is a good thing that this tragic outcome is being investigated, awful though it must be for the midwife and other staff - if a poor prognosis at birth could have contributed for example, then it would be helpful to have information to adjust current breastfeeding advice in light of this.

However I agree that nobody knows how to breastfeed when their baby is born. I'd been to the courses and read every book and I still forgot all of it after several hours of labour - I was just exhausted and could barely remember how to do things I was totally familiar with, without trying to do something totally new.

I have large breasts and they were gigantic when pregnant/after giving birth. I remember being petrified about suffocating the baby and the nurses reassuring me. I also watched my babies very very closely for months to make sure everything was ok.

I just can't understand how the parents did not understand to keep the airways open. I am so sorry for them, it's a truly tragic case but I think they are seeking to allocate blame to help with handling their grief, and suing to raise funds to assist with the associated costs of having a special needs child.

But I don't think the midwife is at fault in the slightest.

I second (third?) being told by my midwife that you couldn't suffocate a baby by breastfeeding it. I have large breasts that seemed to completely cover ds face when he was trying to latch on.

I blocked dd's airway in the first few days. She went red and started coughing. I got a terrible fright. I was trying a new position recommended by the nurse.

Lots of babies need resuscitation at birth and are fine thereafter, I’m not sure that too much can be read into the baby needing assistance at birth.

A lot depends on whether there’s been a prolonged period of lack of oxygen prior to delivery or whether there’s been just transient stress prior to birth. Many babies are stunned at birth but if they respond quickly and well to resuscitation it’s not really suggestive of underlying issues. If the baby was considered well enough to go back to her parents after assistance it suggests that she was self-ventilating, warm, saturating well and not showing signs of stress (ie grunting). It’s generally the babies who have been so affected by hypoxia who don’t perk up quickly and need sustained ventilatory support who are at greater risk of long term problems and even then lots do really well.

I am currently involved in a similar case, although it isn't due in court for a year or so. The lawyers representing my Trust have told me that almost always, hospitals settle out of court, as going to court is just too risky, even if they feel the HCP has really done nothing wrong.

The fact that this has gone to court makes me think the Trust and their lawyers absolutely believe they have no case to answer.