to wonder whether to teach my daughters to follow their instincts?

[Pacers]

I have two pre/early teen daughters who are starting to become more independent - going swimming, shopping and to the cinema with friends.

As I did with their older brother, I’m reinforcing the safety message: stay in a group, and get out of a situation quickly if it doesn’t feel right. Discretion being the greater part of valour and all that.

I’m wondering how I square this with the increasing likelihood that self ID will mean people who appear to be men will use facilities which have traditionally been female only?

Till now, an apparent chap in the ladies would have been assumed to be up to no good and I would have been in no doubt as to how to tell my daughters to respond. But as there isn’t any way of telling by appearance alone whether someone identifies as female and is therefore completely entitled to be there, or is a predatory male, it’s hard to know how to help my daughters balance respect for others and keeping themselves safe

(this arose from a discussion on FWR, but I wanted to get responses from a broader range of people as I

ignore stray “as I”

How many incidents of predatory men have their been reported in your area, OP? Because obviously you want her fear to be proportionate to the risk. If there are particular bathrooms where men are known to prey on girls you should obviously tell her to avoid those. If it's happening regularly in your area you should certainly make sure she knows this.

If on the other hand it is not a common problem around you and you're just fearmongering I would keep that to yourself as you don't want your daughter living in fear of an imaginary threat that has no basis. That would be terribly unfair on her, wouldn't it?

Given that the only person that ever attacked me in a bathroom was a woman, I'd tell them "if someone attacks you in a bathroom, run & scream, don't question their gender identity." But I'm not a fear-mongering asshat.

I think you tell her to trust her instincts.

I've shared toilets and bathrooms in clubs with men and transwomen and felt perfectly safe. Equally, I've been in unisex toilets with men and felt like I had to get out NOW, and did.

Wherever she feels unsafe, for whatever reason, she must listen to that feeling.

TheHulksPurplePanties me too. A woman in a bathroom in a club grabbed my tits because 'they're fantastic' (her words at the time) and then when I pushed her hands away she called me a bitch and shoved me into a mirror. I ran out and complained to the barman but they never caught up with her.

I have never seen a man use the ladies, in London. Not even during Pride. Chances are she may see trans women in loos but she’s probably smart enough to realise they don’t pose a threat, which they don’t.
In fact trans women are more likely to be the victims of sex abuse.

A woman in a bathroom in a club grabbed my tits because 'they're fantastic' (her words at the time) and then when I pushed her hands away she called me a bitch and shoved me into a mirror.

Mine crawled under the stall and pushed me up against the wall and grabbed my vagina. Other people in the bathroom had to break the door down. I was quite young and confused so just ran out of their crying.

Recently in my area a woman was stabbed to death my another woman in a mall bathroom. They had no connection, it was a random act of violence.

On the other hand, been in plenty of bathrooms with men & transwomen, and never had anything more than the odd jokey comment. Hell the men at Yankee stadium are so used to women using their loo's during a game (because women's line ups are always HUGE!) they all put their hands over theirs eyes when one walks in and shout "we aren't looking, we aren't looking" and "don't sit on the seat, who knows when it was last cleaned!"

Christ on a bike! Is this is a non-alarmist thread about trans people in toilets? With posters actually being sensible with their advice? ON MUMSNET?!?!

Who would have thought.

I don’t think being unsure how to navigate a fairly seismic change in social convention makes me a prejudiced asshat, tbf, but thanks for that.

I suppose instinct in this sense is developed by an understanding of what is “the norm” in a given situation. So till now, seeing someone apparently male where they wouldn’t have been expected would have at least put me on guard. In terms of my daughters, the message that I would have given them would have been simply “get out”.

That’s not a realistic option any more, but forgive me, I do still worry that this will be taken advantage of. I am trying to understand whether there is any nuance I can give to the message that they have to assume everyone is acting in good faith, which kind of runs counter to other messages they hear (eg, I wouldn’t tell them that a stranger offering a lift was kindly offering to get them home quicker)

Judge people on their behavior not on their appearance is a good mantra to live by.

Regardless of looks, how masculine, what sex, if someone makes her feel unsafe, leave and report them.

The toilet thing is such a red herring when it comes to self id. Trans woman are already in women's toilets and they are not doing anything wrong. Men can already enter toilets if they want, I was attacked in a ladies toilet by a 'cis' man. There was no one there to stop him.

Teach your daughters to keep themselves safe around anyone that’s makes them feel uncomfortable. Be that women, men, trans, whatever. Don’t drum a fear into your children because of your own beliefs.

Perhaps then instead of teaching them to be suspicious of every poor transwoman they meet who is just going about her business you teach them to... be suspicious when people are acting suspiciously! I.e. teach them that most basic principle of human decency - to judge people on their actions, not on their race or gender or sexual orientation or disability etc etc.

Mine crawled under the stall and pushed me up against the wall and grabbed my vagina. Other people in the bathroom had to break the door down. I was quite young and confused so just ran out of their crying

That is horrific, I can only imagine how frightening and upsetting it must have been

The only person I know who’s been attacked in a toilet was a slightly butch lesbian - she’s very slight, she just had short hair and wears loose clothes. Attaked by women. oh actually my ex’s sister was witness to a woman smashing another woman’s face into the sink and breaking her nose. Really you should teach your daughter to look out for behaviour and take her to self defence sees if you’re worried.

I don’t think being unsure how to navigate a fairly seismic change in social convention makes me a prejudiced asshat, tbf, but thanks for that.

I'm sorry if you're offended, but it's hardly a seismic shift. Transwomen have been using women's facilities since women's facilities have existed. We were just never "aware" of it.

General rule of thumb with anything is that if you get a gut feeling something is off, leave. Although, generally, if something bad is going to happen, it will be when you least expect it.

I don’t have a particular issue with trans women.

Why would you think that was my concern?

I am worried about men, taking advantage of the chance to access areas without challenge which previously would have been understood to be “off bounds”. And I’m worried about how to give my daughters the confidence to indentify when something feels wrong and act accordingly, rather than chiding themselves for potential prejudice and giving everyone the benefit of the doubt until proved wrong.

I am very sorry for all those who have ever been assaulted, no matter by whom or in which circumstances. For what it’s worth, this is not my solitary concern for my children’s safety, of course it isn’t. But we all proceed to mitigate risk on an assessment of the likelihood of that risk occurring, and this change in norms requires a sudden recalibration of one particular element that has been a given for most of our lifetimes here in the UK.

Given how tiny the population of transwomen is, I'd be automatically suspicious of any visibly male people in women only spaces, as statistically speaking I'd imagine they're far more likely to be there for sinister reasons. Voyeurism, assault, mugging. Unless the individual's manner is reassuring, I'd tell your DD to be wary of men in the ladies.

I think young girls have a very tough time in today's climate. The whole gender bollocks thing encourages them to feel any reservations they feel are in some way bigoted when really women have always had a high index of suspicion towards male strangers in isolated or vulnerable settings. You just have to reassure your DC that it's ok to be judgemental. As women we judge whether we think a situation is safe almost without noticing, and it's common sense to do so.

YABU In my younger years I've had to protect a smaller woman from being attacked in a toilet from another woman - twice. However I've always safely used toilets which men and transwomen have used and have seen no such incidents.

If your daughters need to be careful of anyone it's women using women only toilets particularly in clubs, pubs and bars with younger age groups or where the military hang out.

If predatory men wanted to attack women in toilets, they would do it, regardless of self ID laws. Do you really think a door with a little lady on it stops them?

Teach your daughters to trust their instincts and keep safe. Don't teach them to be prejudice and freak out when they see a trans person in the toilets. I have never seen a trans women in a female only space, it is not now guareteed there will be a man hiding in every women's toilet and changing room.

Of course a little sign wouldn’t stop them Nothisispatrick. Knowing they might have been stopped on the way in or challenged by security might have done though, and that won’t apply any more.

I’m a bit taken aback that a query about men has been answered largely with details about (a) transwomen being fine and (b) women being violent too.

I don’t dispute either, but statistically men are still a not insignificant risk

Presumably anyone attacking anyone in the loos or elsewhere irrespective of gender is going to rate a challenge by security?

I would teach your daughters to follow their instincts. It’s just about a free country and you’re entitled to teach your children your belief system.

The most important thing you can teach your daughters OP is to not care about being polite when they are in an uncomfortable position.

I’m not talking about being rude because that might not be the best option but rather prioritising getting the hell out of there over the possibility of hurting someone’s feelings.

I always think of that poor girl who accepted a lift from Eric Castro (who was an acquaintance) and spent the next 9 years in a basement. I wonder if she felt uncomfortable accepting his lift but didn’t want to hurt his feelings.

As someone who spent a lot of time as a barmaid, I frequently had to turf men out of the ladies. Mainly it was blokes trying to have a go at a woman who had gone into the ladies to escape them. Plus there's the drunken letches.

Tbh I'm far more concerned about the risk my boys face using public toilets than the risk my daughter faces. How much energy do you spend worrying about the risk men pose to your son, op?

We have to teach all our children how to be respectful of others and keep themselves safe.

What a refreshingly tolerant thread