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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be shocked by seeing a whole new side to DHs opinions of women?

86 replies

wiccamum · 18/06/2018 10:07

Apologies if this is a bit rambling, but I had an argument with DH last night, and it has left me reeling a bit.
We had just come back from a weekend away, at a very nice country resort. Had a very nice time and came back pretty tired. So we were relaxing on the sofa last night, and DH brings up a recent story in the news about a female football pundit getting a “round of applause” from a male pundit (google it if you haven’t read it...I am rubbish at adding links 😆) and the obvious social media furore it caused. He said he thought everyone was overreacting and needed to “calm down now”, I disagreed and also felt the clapping and comments were patronising from the male pundit. I also pointed out that, ok maybe everyone was getting very heated on social media, but what dh needed to grasp was that this is an example of something women face EVERY DAY, so seeing it on a public forum, and a massive global news network, might spark some fairly strong feelings!
At this point he said I was now patronising HIM, and he could understand perfectly well the significance of it, but that people were still over reacting. Basically now this conversation had descended into a full on bunfight and I reminded him of all the shit women put up with (including my own experiences) on a daily basis. To level the playing field dh then said “well, it works both bloody ways you know!”. So, to address the balance of sexist experiences, to give me some insight into the male struggle he gave this example....
Wait for it....
Now, don’t get too upset ladies with a delicate disposition...
Once...when he was out running, a drunk woman...yes, a WOMAN, came out of a pub as he ran past and told him he had a “nice arse”.

Seriously. This is how he justified the “ it works both ways” argument. I then recounted a few examples of my own experiences of misogyny and sexism (the usual, we all know) and rather than feeling shocked or upset, he said “well, I have lost business because women have used their tits to get what they want”. Hmm.

I then said that, firstly maybe these women you speak of have learnt that the only way to get noticed in his industry is to exploit their looks, or maybe, just maybe they might actually be better than him and won the business on their own merit...that maybe the fact that they are attractive (or have tits) is just totally, fucking irrelevant!!! I now just tell him to simply Fuck off, which offends him. I say that he has told me to fuck off before, he’s just upset that this time I said it first.
This is followed up by dh saying things like “you have no idea what you’re talking about”, “you don’t understand “ and all that crap. I am left downstairs in tears, thinking “what don’t I understand? Being a woman? Dealing with sexism? Being judged by my gender? Missing out on stuff because I’m female?”
Dh husband has just taken my anger away and used it for himself!!! He’s nicked feminism off me!!!! I’m fuming!!!!!

So I get up this morning, still angry. I totally admit I was stomping around and wouldn’t speak to him. He says (sarcastically) “ nice to see your feeling so contrite this morning”.
WTAF !!!

Am I BU to tell him to go fuck himself? I feel like strutting around the house wearing a red dress and white hood, just so he feels the balance has been redressed. Why is he doing this? Why is it he can’t simply accept that it doesn’t simply “work both ways”? I am so sick of my anger being diluted and being made to feel that, just because I have a successful career and access to toilets, san pro, health care etc, that I don’t have the right to feel that life is not balanced, that I shouldn’t feel the same anger that there are women out there who don’t have the opportunities that I have? AIBU to think my dh cannot call himself a feminist?

OP posts:
bumpertobumper · 18/06/2018 10:45

I can understand why you are upset and frustrated by your husbands position.

I can't think of any good examples of the top of my head ( helpful!) but there are plenty of good books and websites out there that will explain and open his eyes to the endemic pervasive inequality that women face.

I suggest that you find some good reading material for him, explain calmly ( when you are ready) that you were riled because this is such an important and emotive issue, and that you would appreciate him reading to understand your position.

Hopefully this will diffuse the situation nd give him some clear perspective.

I find that when emotions run high people become entrenched in their position, backed into a corner. And it is harder to make coherent arguments.

It is a shame if your husband genuinely is sexist, but hopefully he will be open to developing and growing his feminism!

ConciseandNice · 18/06/2018 10:47

YANBU. I had a similar debate with my husband this morning. I was incensed. I told him that as the father of daughters he needs to be a feminist and make an effort to understand. He told me I was patronising and should know that he does. I told him as a white woman, I wouldn’t dream of telling a black woman that I understand her experience of racism is. How can he tell me that it’s the same both ways for men and women and he knows!!

wiccamum · 18/06/2018 10:48

FizzyGreenWater, he is a pretty smart fella. But insight is the issue. He’s from a reasonably privileged background. By that I mean, not wealthy privileged but rather shielded from the kind of experiences I had. He came from an environment of domestic bliss, he has a supportive family, he hasn’t perhaps struggled against some of the barriers I have.
He’s well meaning, just he maybe struggles to fully empathise

OP posts:
wiccamum · 18/06/2018 10:50

Bumbertobumper, thank you so much, helpful advice.

OP posts:
nellieellie · 18/06/2018 10:54

I truly sympathise OP. This sounds exactly like the sort of argument Ive had many times with colleagues, male friends etc. I disagree that you were childish or that not speaking is “emotional abuse”. If you are really upset and angry after an argument, not talking is quite natural. It’s not an attempt to control or manipulate. It’s just called “being upset and cross” (technical term).

However, it’s not the sort of argument Ive ever had with DH because he wouldn’t be DH if he thought like that.

I remember having a similar argument with my dad about 40 years ago. He also trotted out the example of when he was in the army and a female officer had “looked at him like she could eat him”. “Yes! I yelled, but that was 30 YEARS ago. ONE EXAMPLE 30 YEARS AGO! I can give you examples from YESTERDAY! From DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY! FROM MOST DAYS! THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE!” (It was the 70s). I always get very upset when people just don’t see how it really is.
Maybe you can agree to discuss it more calmly, because it is something you feel very strongly about.?

lottiegarbanzo · 18/06/2018 10:55

Did he ever claim to be a feminist?

His position sounds very normal. That is, he doesn't believe that things he hasn't experienced himself, or chosen to think about himself, are real.

Shit, thick (emotionally), but very normal.

heresyandwitchcraft · 18/06/2018 10:55

YANBU
I think this is widespread, and real. This article, which talks about how transgender men (born female, but transition to being men) experience sexism is really eye opening, and might help him understand:

"“Being privy to the conversations that men have amongst themselves really does give me an indication of how they think about women,” he says. “And sometimes it can be really scary.”'

time.com/transgender-men-sexism/

FermatsTheorem · 18/06/2018 10:57

Just caught up with the news coverage of the original incident - this wasn't any old pundit, it was Eni Aluko, FGS!!!

Ex women's international footballer, lawyer by profession (she took time out of her career to play international football), whistle-blew on racism in the England women's team, has covered football extensively for the BBC and is basically all round awesome.

Your husband is definitely a sexist bellend OP.

wiccamum · 18/06/2018 10:57

Oh nellie, that sounds pretty much like the situation last night! One example given in an attempt to argue that both sexes suffer the same 😂. I think that was why I got so angry and frustrated

OP posts:
wiccamum · 18/06/2018 10:59

I’m not a football fan, I had no idea what a big deal she is! Sounds like an astounding woman

OP posts:
LighthouseSouth · 18/06/2018 11:04

yes OP I get it

you've learned you're married to a sexist arse, this would upset me too

there was a thread going on when women realised this after MeToo - I think a lot of them just decided to cope with it, but I know I couldn't.

he seems to have a lot of ideas that really really indicate zero understanding.

Hideandgo · 18/06/2018 11:05

This is tricky and I think it escalated beyond either of you acknowledging the others viewpoint. One problem with our stance as women is that in making our very valid points, we must point out that by and large, (including all the clueless/supposedly harmless/trying their best men) men are dicks either directly or through apathy. In some ways and with some men it’s not their fault, it’s societys fault, but that doesn’t absolve them for their responsibility to try and educate themselves and put in place counter measures.

You put him in a defensive position and I think any of us would likely dig in. Even if you’re right overall. I’m not apologising for him but trying to explain what I think happened here.

You need to both calm down. If you love him and usually believe in him, you should be able to approach this topic better on another occasion.

But yes, he does need better education on the topic. And I also believe that men (unless one who’s been assaulted in the past and carry’s that anxiety with them always) will never fully understand what it’s like to be a woman and the vulnerability that comes with that.

wiccamum · 18/06/2018 11:06

Oh god! I really thought I had one of the good guys!!

I’m going to have to educate him,aren’t I.

I need to calm down first

OP posts:
Hideandgo · 18/06/2018 11:07

Horrific spelling and grammar😬

MerryMarigold · 18/06/2018 11:07

Speaking from my own experience here...If I'm arguing I will start saying stuff I don't really believe just to support my view, exaggerate it I suppose just to 'win' (probably childish). If this is what dh wad doing, it may not be that be really thinks like this, but got pushed into a place much further than he really identifies with 'by the argument'. Sounds like it escalated and so you both got a bit belligerent. Doesn't mean he is really on that end of the spectrum, but felt attacked (as did you) and so pushed back, ending up in a place he probably doesn't fully buy into.

MerryMarigold · 18/06/2018 11:09

Xpost with hideandgo who expressed it better and with less mistakes!

crunchymint · 18/06/2018 11:11

OP you will get lots telling you you are over reacting/in the wrong.
BUT I totally agree with you. I would be beyond furious that someone I loved thought this. You think of yourself as a team, and then find out that actually he does not understand what being a woman actually means in this society. That he thinks he has as hard a time as you. And thinks women he works with has as hard a time as him. Of course you are furious.

NordicNobody · 18/06/2018 11:11

www.reddit.com/r/Gender_Critical/comments/6kkeni/the_rules_of_misogyny

From your DHs rant I've I've ticket off:

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

5th rule of misogyny: WATM! Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.

12th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.

14th rule of misogyny: Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.

YANBU OP, I'd have been shocked as well. Definitely sounds like he needs to take his head out the sand about some of the things women are actually facing on a daily basis.

MerryMarigold · 18/06/2018 11:18

I'm actually quite surprised that in a heated argument none of you ever day things you regret. Whether that may be personal comments, or argumentation. I've often regretted it. I expect the OP's dh does, bit needs to calm down before he can say, actually I was being ridiculous when I said that.

LighthouseSouth · 18/06/2018 11:32

in terms of saying things you might regret..

I rarely get angry - I mean, less than once in a blue moon.

but when it happens, I tend to tell the truth.

this can definitely be make or break for whoever is involved.

UpstartCrow · 18/06/2018 11:36

wiccamum
Oh god! I really thought I had one of the good guys!!
Think back. Did he actually do anything as a good guy, or did he just pay lip service to it?

I’m going to have to educate him,aren’t I.
That's not going to work, do yourself a favour and save your energy. He isn't a good guy, he's just good at using camouflage to get what he wants. He's not a project and you can't fix him.

Consider the possibility that he brought up the topic of conversation deliberately, because he sees you as the one who needs fixing.

liquidrevolution · 18/06/2018 11:38

to quote Jessica Eaton...

There’s only three things you can be certain of in life: taxes, death and some randomer yelling ‘what about men?’ every time you talk about women’s issues

her full article is here

Your partner is a twat. But then so is mine because he couldn't see the harm in page 3. All we can do is educate.

Spaghettijumper · 18/06/2018 11:39

I haven't met any man who doesn't think your DH on some level, unfortunately. Realising that is the point at which most women experience 'feminist rage' - the result of realising just what you're up against. Yes a significant proportion of men are abusers, rapists and murderers, and an equally significant proportion are rampant sexists who sexually harass, belittle and demean women. But the final heap of shit in the shit show is that the vast majority of the rest of them are heavily invested in living in a fantasy land where they are Good Guys living in a decent and fair world and any attempt to shatter that fantasy is met with annoyance and anger. So women are left in the fantastic position of not only having to fear the abusers, rapists and murders, avoid and deal with the sexists and harassers, but also put up with the wilful obliviousness of the Good Guys. It fucking sucks.

LighthouseSouth · 18/06/2018 11:41

UpstartCrow "Consider the possibility that he brought up the topic of conversation deliberately, "

sadly this seems possible. Both my parents think my feminism "has gone too far". I haven't been out campaigning for a male curfew to make women safer on the streets or anything. But apparently just my feelings on MeToo, and general approach of being careful around men, especially for example while away for work, have led to "you have gone too far".

Spaghettijumper · 18/06/2018 11:42

In my experience the reactions to the attempts to shatter the Good Guy fantasy are met with either anger or (much more fucking annoyingly) the sort of reaction you'd expect when telling a four year old that Santa doesn't exist - horrified denial with a side of guilt, as though it's your fault that this Good Guy didn't succeed entirely on his own fantastic merit as he believed but because he had the required qualifications (cock and balls) to put him ahead of any female competition.