Are my expectations of ds completely unrealistic?

[Findthewhitehorse]

Ds is 10. I have some basic things that I expect of him but that never happen. These are.

Bring his dirty cup down in the morning from his bedtime drink.

Take his breakfast bowl into the kitchen and wipe up his spilt milk.

Hang his school uniform up after school or at least lay it out (not throw it on the floor all around the house).

Put his shoes away instead of leaving them in the middle of the hallway.

Hang his coat up.

Put his lunchbox in the kitchen not left in the car or dumped on the floor.

Put his dirty socks and boxers in the wash basket not chucked on MY bedroom floor.

Hang his wet towel on the towel radiator, not throw it in the corner of MY bedroom then keep getting a fresh one out every time he showers (twice a day).

Not get changed 3 times in an evening getting each set of clothes covered in mud or food.

Not shove all his dirty clothes back in the drawers when I sent him to pick up, and put clean ones in the wash basket.

Is this all normal or is my ds particularly inconsiderate?

yanbu, I have only just managed to get 10yo DSS to remember to bring dirty plates/glasses into the kitchen when he's done with them but even that's still hit and miss and he can never manage to put towels back on the radiator even though he has to go passed the bathroom to come downstairs! I've given up to be honest, I tried the 'Can you please' routine and now it's just 'Don't leave it there!' - he once asked me where he was supposed to leave his plate if not on the floor, I said 'kitchen sink' he said 'where's that?'
On the other hand, my DS (3) regularly brings his dirty plates/cups to the kitchen and even helps wash up (well, doesn't so much help as splash water but it's the thought) and likes to help tidy up and such putting his toys away at the end of the day and giving me his dirty clothes. I have made an conscious effort to get my DS helping out from an early age because of the hard time I've had getting DSS to pitch in but mainly I just hate cleaning up everyone and it will hopefully set me up for an easier time getting him to do chores when he's older!

Perfectly reasonable expectations.

If I were you I would write them down. Go through the list with him. Put the list somewhere very visible. Give him fair warning. Then come down like a ton of bricks when he doesn’t do it.

It is a long list.

You need to break it down and conquer a few at a time or you will just turn into a henpecker.

Keep going, but with smaller expectations building up to the larger ones.

I have the same thing with my dd, same age. Rome was not built in a day! :)

Could you do a grown up tick chart type thing and link it with daily Xbox/football time when all tasks have been done and also weekly pocket money if done every day? It may also help him to remember what there is to do. But you must stick to making the consequences real, so no pocket money= no treats at the weekend, or anything bought by you instead. If he's ever dragging his heels you could also time him to complete them fast for a bonus (small treat or extra 5 mins up at night).

I do agree with all the posts on this, and certainly I encouraging my sons to do this sort of thing at age 10. However, DH and I are now in our early 60's and the upstairs of our house has several used mugs, we both throw our clothes on the floor and I have to round up wet towels to wash most mornings. My lunch box was still in the car from yesterday this morning. It doesn't really matter much to me.

" But all I get is sulking and him declaring he's a 'bad child'."

So tough it out. Let him see that the only thing that makes any kind of difference is him actually doing those tasks. And then reward him with lots of cuddles and love and positivity when he does actually do them - praise him for being thoughtful and kind.

Are sure you're not concerned about the showering and changing?
My DD1 has OCD and when she was that age she would need to shower and change multiple times a day as soon as she felt she had got dirty. It also meant she really struggled moving anything dirty, so would refuse to put her dirty clothes away or rinse her plate off but would without a fuss set the table or put clean clothes away or do anything that was clean. Does he manage to do any chores like that?
It doesnt sound like normal behaviour to me (though from pp I am in the minority) so would respond by asking him why he doesnt do it, offering to help him do it to begin with or giving him alternative chores instead before getting angry and giving punishments.

Thats the thing people have different standards. I try to relax and not be so anal about having the house clean and tidy but seeing it messy really depresses me.

No drinks allowed upstairs, the other things just make him do them every time you notice them - then he can choose, do as you have asked or be constantly interrupted during his downtime. But yes, completely normal expectations and completely normal pre teen.

You've described my 10 year old ds exactly except mine doesn't shower until I tell him to.
I make him pick the towel/ shoes/ socks/ dishes everytime and he apologises but it's really tedious.
My pet hate is that he pulls his trousers and pants and socks off and leaves them all tangled, socks in a ball and one leg inside out - gives me the rage!!!
All we can do is keep on, I try to ask him nicely and not show the irritation I feel and that leads to an apology and a better atmosphere but it's not easy.

mine puts his shoes away
plate in dw
clothes in the laundry

but otherwise none of the above. I think it is worth just picking your battles. Do a few things well and work on the other things later. Otherwise you will be constantly nagging and upset.

fwiw I think training your children to wash their own uniform is the most useful thing you can do, so that they always know what is needed for the next day and ORGANISE IT, ie PE Kit etc, and know where the socks, shirt is coming from (ie their own efforts to put in washing machine and take out) But it takes a period of years to get this functioning. Little by little you can introduce new elements of taking responsibility. Going to shop for ingredients for packed lunches, washing PE kit. If a house run too smoothly it doesn't leave much room for the development of individual responsibility. Imho. It becomes a bit of a factory, high productivity but low self esteem.

My DS is now 11 and I've been through all this with him too.

Almost the exact same things. he's now much better in terms of doing as he's asked and not stropping and he certainly gets most of these things done correctly most of the time. but it was a long battle.

as others have said specific consequences for each of the things not done is a good thing. and also sticking to your guns as others have said.

with the "sulking and him declaring he's a 'bad child'" thing DS used to say similar things, I used to make it very clear that I did not think he was a bad/naughty child but that his current actions were not good behaviour. He also used to say things like 'you don't love me anymore' to which I was always give him a big hug and remind him that I will always always love him no matter what but that when he behaves badly it is sometimes hard to like him.

It has seemed to work over time. the other thing that worked was minor rewards. So I would pick 2-3 specific things to target for a week and if he managed to successfully complete ALL 3 tasks every day for the week he would get £1, and then 50p for every week he maintained this. I know not everyone would be able to afford this, (although actually it hardly ever cost me the money) but I was considering introducing pocket money anyway and just used this method for doing that. Maybe you could try something similar?

as others say your expectations aren't unreasonable and his behaviour is not unusual for the most part it's just the ages they're at and a learning curve about cleanliness/tidiness.

For what it's worth I'm impressed you have him showering twice a day. I still have a bit of a battle getting mine into the shower/bath!

“Could you do a grown up tick chart type thing and link it with daily Xbox/football time when all tasks have been done and also weekly pocket money if done every day?”

I really don’t think linking this sort of thing to pocket money is a good idea. Children shouldn’t expect to be paid for contributing to the family community they live in. All of the things you are asking are the very basic courtesies you would expect from a civilized person. When we live together we don’t make unnecessary work for other people.

I don't agree with Bertrand at all. I associate lists and rules with a very high stress environment and not one I want my children to grow up in. My children are a bit dithery and often lazy but they are calm and they all get on. A small price to pay for a scuzzy house and a bit of disorganisation. Ds2 has ASD and is really disorganised in some ways. I suck it up and try not to nag but to make him feel independent and learn the things that he needs to learn, like travel, food prep, washing, his own homework. Cups are neither here nor there. Teenagers are messy. Some adults are messy. you learn by example but not by fear.

critique did you mean that it's the mother's job to sort this out? It's the dad's as well if he's about...

OP, your list is identical to mine! My 11yo will do this stuff when I chivvy him, but this seems normal to me. My dd (8) isn't much better.

He will occasionally surprise me though by emptying the bin without being asked, and he will also put on and take out washes from the machine as I taught him how to use it, but he's very much a work in progress.

Bertrand a 10 year old is still dependent on their parents for a lot, and I don't think a "social contract" at that age is appropriate, any more than it is for a baby or a toddler, who after all make a lot of unnecessary work for their parents. Children are developing all their skills and developing unselfishness is very important but it doesn;t happen as fast as you might want it to. 10 year olds are busy trying to learn so many many things, and a dirty cup is your problem not theirs. You dont want a dirty cup in their room, they don't care that much, and I'm sure they would wash it if you ran out of cups.
The parents' perspective on tidy and untidy is quite different from the child's.

I started a very similar thread earlier this week - I feel your pain OP!!!

You only need a list if you haven’t started the “social contract” early. And it works both ways ‘You set the table while I do dinner and then we’ll all eat together” “i’ll make sure that the clothes you want are ready for you to wear if you put them in the basket when they’re dirty” “Let’s all get X done then we’ll have more time for Y”

Not shove all his dirty clothes back in the drawers when I sent him to pick up, and put clean ones in the wash basket

This did make me laugh op. My ds is also ten and does this! He takes clean clothes out of his drawer and when I tell him to put them back, he ends up chucking them in the laundry bin! No dirty clothes make it there though! We've discussed this many times but nothing changes!

My son aged 11 does all this but o was blamimg his asd. Clothes all over floor shoes anywhere thry land even foun behind sofa. We have tried everything to tackle this to no avail.

@BertrandRussell I always value your opinion on these boards but I am curious about your anti position on linking these sorts of expected behaviours to pocket money.

I would have thought that regular pocket money should be linked to expected behaviours, growing up I did and now my DS does. He now knows that his basic regular pocketmoney is related to and reliant on his maintaining basic and expected behaviours. Any bad behaviour whether it be something to do with this sort of home tidines/consideration for others, or any other kind of poor behaviours at school home or elsewhere will result in the loss of his pocketmoney.

I would add that I do understand that you're trying to differentiate between paid chores and general behavioural expectations. I suppose during the introduction using money as a rewards for initially achieving these behaviours regularly could put them in the same field as chores but this was only during the introduction of both the behaviour expectations AND pocketmoney.

My DS now receives £1/week pocket money as standard (provided he met general behavioural expectations) but may earn additional pocket money by performing certain tasks on an ad hoc basis.

Soupforbrains- sorry, this is one of my hobbyhorses!

Haha @BertrandRussell don't apologise. I'm genuinely interested. I consider you to be one of the 'wise elders' on MN generally and I have found your advice and comments on all sorts of topics really useful and interesting and sometimes enlightening. So I genuinely want to hear your perspective I wasn't trying to be confrontational!

p.s. we all have our hobbyhorses

I think children should have some money because you can’t function in society without it, and there is no other way they can get it.

I think children should contribute to the family community because we need to live cooperatively.

I do think it’s OK to pay children for extra jobs - but the OP’s list is an absolute bare minimum for 10 in my opinion........