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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to have done a little happy dance when I read this.

124 replies

Skarossinkplunger · 13/06/2018 19:39

I realise that loads of people will absolutely hate this, but I had a huge sigh of relief when I read this. Well done Justine!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/media/2018/jun/13/mumsnet-transgender-row-feminism-tougher-forum-rules

OP posts:
Loopytiles · 13/06/2018 22:44

What is “insidious” Melanie, the loss of single sex spaces for women and services? Refuges, changing rooms, toilets.

The potential end of competitive women's sports?

Loopytiles · 13/06/2018 22:45

The opportunity to request a woman doctor or midwife.

Tangled59 · 13/06/2018 22:49

A tragic day for feminism. Justine has sacrificed women at the altar to faddy PCness.

And what the fuck is a happy dance? Sonething people that heart unicorns do?

PositivelyPERF · 13/06/2018 22:52

The relentless trans bollocks it’s the bollocks trying to get into female spaces that has caused this back lash.

Etino · 13/06/2018 22:55

Testing testing...
Ian Huntley is not a woman.
and I feel fucking grubby using him as an example but it is a grubby debate

BoreOfWhabylon · 13/06/2018 22:57

Justine hasn't sacrificed women or capitulated to anything. The article does not represent the reality.

Read the link in the thread pinned in Site Stuff. We can still state that transwomen are not biological women. We can still state that a woman is an adult human female and a man is an adult human male and that it is a biological impossibility for a man to become a woman and vice versa.

CelebrityJuicing · 13/06/2018 22:58

Very happy about this. I've read some awful things on here about trans ladies, in particular and I'm glad it won't be allowed any longer. Well done MN for standing up against bigotry and hate 🌈

CelebrityJuicing · 13/06/2018 22:59

And everyone is entitled to their views but I'm glad the derogatory names and nastiness is being removed.

BoreOfWhabylon · 13/06/2018 23:00

We can still say that Ian Huntley is a child-murdering piece of scum who was, is and always will be a man.

And TRAs who call us 'cis' or TERF will be deleted

PositivelyPERF · 13/06/2018 23:04

the derogatory names and nastiness is being removed.

Yes, isn’t it great that the TRAs can no longer call us TERFs and cis! I’m very happy with that. 😁

Bibesia · 13/06/2018 23:11

Good. YANBU.

Etino · 13/06/2018 23:11

I hope you’re right @BoreOfWhabylon
From the Guardian piece linked to above, ‘As part of the new policy Mumsnet moderators are now likely to delete potentially “hurtful” comments that use trans people’s former names, posts which use pronouns they have consciously rejected...’
Ffs

MuckyMare · 13/06/2018 23:26

'Cis' isn't derogatory? It's just a descriptor? Like when gay people say 'straight'?

BoreOfWhabylon · 13/06/2018 23:32

Many posters, myself included, object to the term 'cis'. We are biological women. We don't need or want a prefix. Women and transwomen. Perfectly clear.

SlightAggrandising · 13/06/2018 23:32

muckymare it implies that one identifies with gender stereotypes. Gender is imaginary. I'm a woman. That is my sex. I have no gender. End of story. That is why you can't call me "cis".

BoreOfWhabylon · 13/06/2018 23:33

Anyway, I posted this on the other thread:

I'm old enough to be the granny of many of you. I've seen a lot of life, and in the olden days was very supportive of old-style transexuals. They were brave people and many of them had very difficult lives. I was happy to share female spaces with them. It has been referred to as an 'honour system' and that's how it operated. I still think that anyone should be able wear what they like, 'present' in whatever way they choose, and use whatever name they wish, without fear of discrimination.

But the sudden upsurge in identity politics is a whole new ball game. I have become more and more gender-critical the longer this cultish, anti-science, child-sterilising, all about the feelz, words mean what I say they mean, aggressive, self-absorbed, self-id, multi-gender nonsense goes on.

Mighty Mumsnet has been invaluable for educating me and many many others. More and more journalists, politicians and commentators are now expressing gender-critical views, which they would not have done even a few months ago. The wonderful ManFriday ladies, the Transgender Trenders and other Mumsnetters are getting the message out to the public and the public are sitting up and taking notice. People are seeing that the Emperor has no clothes.

MNHQ has taken a lot of flak for allowing discussion of these issues to take place. Probably a lot more flak than we will ever know. 'More balls than Millwall' JustineMumsnet put her neck on the line and said Mumsnet would continue to host these discussion. That brought hordes more activists to indulge in Transphobe Spotting and gleefully report back to their acolytes via Twitter, with their screenshot trophies.

We have been inundated with goady fuckers, whataboutery merchants, sea lions, blatant trolls and everything in between. I'm pretty sure that some newer posters are agents provocateurs, posting blatantly transphobic views in order to stoke the fires. I also think we have, unfortunately, attracted a few genuine transphobes.

I have no doubt that MNHQ has been overwhelmed with reports every day ever since. It is therefore not surprising that mods have not always made consistent decisions.

So thank you @JustineMumsnet, @KateMumsnet and @MNHQ for the clarification. I don't see this as capitulation to TRAs at all.

We can still say that a man is an adult human male, a woman is an adult human female, transwomen are biologically male, transmen are biologically female and that a man cannot become a woman, and vice versa. We can still say that autogynephilia is a thing, that a biological male - regardless of how they identified - viciously assaulted a 60 year old woman for wanting to attend a meeting.

We can still say that Ian Huntley is a child-murdering piece of scum who was, is and always will be a man.

We know that those who persistently target and report posters for saying these things will get short shrift now from MNHQ.

So thank you Mighty Mumsnet. We are winning this fight.

@Datun said it much more succinctly than I have done Blush

They have reiterated that you can discuss biology, and science. Which includes AGP, and the fact that humans cannot change sex.

I can't see them deciding to backtrack on that in the future.

And finally, they have had weeks and weeks to sort this statement out. They have been targeted relentlessly to go large. So I see it as fairly positive, given how negative it could have been.

A few 'work arounds' although irritating will not halt the debate. And the more people who oppose the gender critical viewpoint, the quicker the trans ideology is exposed.

PositivelyPERF · 13/06/2018 23:36

Cis' isn't derogatory Cis is a scientific term that has been twisted to change the sexes known as women and men and to differentiate them from trans people. I am a WOMAN not a ‘cis’. I don’t identify with being a woman, I am one because I was born as a girl and have grown into a woman. I don’t need a prefix from men who say they identify as women and demand to use the name ‘woman’ while also demanding that we don’t acknowledge that they are trans. They don’t get to change my descriptor while demanding to use woman for themselves.

MipMipMip · 13/06/2018 23:48

You can say Ian Huntly is a man. MNHQ clarified this. You can't say other (currently unnamed) trans people are men. So already it is being unevenly applied and not understanding how Self ID will work.

I feel for the mods, thry are having a very difficult time. But I think one poster (accidently) summed it up perfectly:

if Mumsnet still allows people to refuse to accept trans women as women then we have made no real progress

Your thoughts WILL comply.

We also had:

The accusation that trans women aren't female is about as sweeping a negative generalisation as it gets.

Facts (no female can be a transwoman) are now negative generalisations.

Most trans people just want to get on with their lives. I, and most of the people I've spoken to on here, fully support that. There are however a significant number who want complete obedience and control of how we think and how we speak. They want women to no longer exist as a class.

A genuine tweet from one if these people:
(women) Enjoy your erasure.

MissusGeneHunt · 13/06/2018 23:49

PositivelyPERF, I was 'told', by a colleague who is also a woman, that we ARE (capitals for emphasis) 'cis' women. Believe me, my eyebrow was raised. I object strongly if anyone labels me anything, and I'll fight it, whether it's from a male or female, sex or gender based. I am a woman, end of. I truly believe this political animal of a woman does just as much harm as those transwomen who also label us.
Runs away for fear of backlash and a telling off from those in the know.

PlantsArePeopleToo · 13/06/2018 23:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PositivelyPERF · 13/06/2018 23:55

MissusGeneHunt

When you were born, were you called a cis girl?
When you reached 18yrs, did you get cards with cis on them?
When you filled in forms, did they ask if you were a cis woman or just a woman?
When you were asked out by a man (assuming you’re straight), did he ask if you were cis or just accept that you were a woman?

None of this cis nonsense existed until the TRAs starting using it to describe women, while demanding to use the term women for themselves. They want to use the term woman and are already trying to claim the term female. It gives them a sense of power to steal a woman’s identity for themselves.

73kittycat73 · 14/06/2018 00:11

So sick of attempts to silence women and ashamed that Justine has buckled.

Couldn't agree more. Angry

Stompythedinosaur · 14/06/2018 01:06

I've been uncomfortable with the increasingly anti-trans feel of mn recently, so I think this is a good thing.

I do wish we could have a 'feminist but not anti-trans' board in addition to the current feminism board!

SilverySurfer · 14/06/2018 01:15

Does this mean I can't say I disagree with putting men wearing frocks who still have their penis into women's prisons, especially those with a history of sexual assault and rape?

MistressDeeCee · 14/06/2018 01:44

Well..when they've got rid of all the women (can we still call ourselves women?) let's see if advertisers still think Mumsnet is a viable ad market for them, since we won't be here to see fuck all. The Fat Controllers will just have to keep Mumsnet afloat won't they?

I think racism is pretty bad on this site in terms of 'Is This Racist/Appropriation etc' regular threads, where it's blatant that they want a black woman to answer so they many can duly turn on us. Mumsnet does nothing about it.

I follow the Self-ID debates and find it abhorrent that women's rights are under threat from a privileged minority. Nowadays tho I feel black women have no voice either and we also don't have that privilege so I guess, others will now know how it feels to be shut down and minimised on here. It's not nice is it?

In the meantime I prefer to now find a fence and just sit there...

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