...to ask why the NHS funds IVF?

[moofeatures]

I promise I'm neither an (intentionally) goady fucker, nor Katie Hopkins.

But.

Following on from a recent thread about there being a perception that public money grows on trees, I'd like to ask your stance on the NHS funding IVF.

Now, before I get flamed for my insensitivity, let me explain that I myself was diagnosed with ovarian failure in my 20s. I am still of an age where I'd meet the criteria for NHS IVF funding, which would be my only way to have a biological child. I initially grieved for this as I always assumed I'd be pregnant one day, but also from day 1 of my diagnosis I've felt that artificial reproductive hormone therapy/IUI/IVF falls outside the remit of what the NHS should provide as it serves no medically therapeutic purpose.

The logical response to my argument is: "if the only option for IVF is to privately fund, then you're depriving less affluent people the chance to become parents", which is both true and a shame... but is it the NHS's problem? Really, it's the infertility which took away that choice - and it is a choice, not a right... at least in my opinion.

Am I alone in feeling this way?

As a group they are planned and probably took a long time to arrive. My guess is if you looked at the figures for the subset of ivf babies compared with the population as a whole there would be less social service intervention and a higher degree of parent involvement. That is an opinion - the stats would be interesting to see.

@TacoLover you can't force people to be happy not having children when they want to have children and they want to define themselves as a mother.

@lesemajeste did you read my post properly??

I saved and saved and we put ourselves into financial hardship for our IVF .

As for the 6.5 % payrise do you watch The Wright Show or something to have gotten this info so wrong ??

I am on call this weekend from Friday night until Monday morning straight through.
I have worked my regular 37.5 hours this past week without the additional on call - for which i will receive an extra £20.

For that £20 i have spent my weekend off supporting a woman who has been injected and raped from midnight last night ongoing all day today .

After my on call which finishes at 9am Monday i then start my full time regular hours straight through until Friday .

Dont talk to me about a 6.5% payrise - you dont know what you are talking about.

twelly obviously they’re more likely to have middle class parents who could afford to pay for them.

Seriously, who does it benefit to make judgements about how good parents are based on how the children were conceived?

If anyone is struggling with infertility, please remember that a woman doesn't have the sole purpose of bearing a child and you aren't defined by whether or not you're a mother

There's also a huge difference between knowing this intellectually and feeling it. Compared to other people on this thread I have been incredibly lucky and had a very short journey (and one with recurrent early miscarriage rather than trouble conceiving), but I did go through a horrible time after my third miscarriage and had a bit of a mental health crisis and ended up having some counselling. I talked about this a lot with my counsellor - the disconnect between my very sincerely held feminist belief that no woman should be defined solely by motherhood or feel like it's their sole purpose in life, and my own sense of despair and loss of identity at the idea it might not happen for me. She basically told me that what I was doing was adding extra guilt to myself by feeling bad for feeling bad, and that emotions can't be rationalised like that, and I think she was right. It isn't somehow anti-feminist or a sign of a narrow mind to be devastated by fertility problems.

but what's upsetting is the part in their post when they talk about the dark time in their life when they wondered what their purpose in life would be if they weren't a mother. It's incredibly sad that people still think like this. If anyone is struggling with infertility, please remember that a woman doesn't have the sole purpose of bearing a child and you aren't defined by whether or not you're a mother

The two aren't mutually exclusive

I don't think a woman's only value is in childbearing

I don't believe that a childless life is without value or meaning

But a childless life isn't the life my husband and I dreamed of

We desperately wanted to have a family, like most people on MN (not all, but most)

We wanted to be able to share our lives with a child, to watch them grow up, to nurture and love them, same as anyone who wants to have a child

A childless future may still have meaning, but it's not the future we dreamed of

We are bereft because we are grieving the loss of our babies that died in my womb, and the future we can't have because my body doesn't work

We are outside peering in at the window of the life we dreamed of.

We have to find new meaning (that's one reason I want to write this book, because I question what my legacy will be without a child) and of course there's meaningful life without children

But that doesn't mean our lives don't have a gaping hole. We might be able to accept being childless one day, but I don't think it's something we'll ever be able to get over

'If anyone is struggling with infertility, please remember that a woman doesn't have the sole purpose of bearing a child and you aren't defined by whether or not you're a mother.'

'I know that. It doesn’t stop me from wanting children.'

That's it exactly. I know that we're not defined by whether or not I'm a mother. That wasn't the point. The point was that I wanted to be a mother and also my DH wanted to be a father. We wanted to have a family together.

Saw the black humour posts and thought we'd share ours. IVF in our house is called "If-ifs". If clearly highlights all the waiting and guessing. 'But what if this happens? Or this?'

Just on a side, we've had an infertility consult this week with a single test. Tangible cost: £300 (not including travel etc). Intangible cost: emotionally drained.

Back to do the same again in a few months.

'If anyone is struggling with infertility, please remember that a woman doesn't have the sole purpose of bearing a child and you aren't defined by whether or not you're a mother.'

I'd also add that this is very easy to say if you're someone who was able to have your own birth children

Or indeed to a lesser degree, if you're child free by choice

I don't want anyone else to have had to experience infertility, which is like a nightmare you don't wake up from. But unless you've experienced involuntary childlessness yourself, and are now living a meaningful life without children, it's with respect, easy to say

'If anyone is struggling with infertility, please remember that a woman doesn't have the sole purpose of bearing a child and you aren't defined by whether or not you're a mother.'

For me, the thing with this is, if you ask almost anyone "what matters to you most?", the answer is likely to be related to those around them.

For me, it is my biological purpose. I can't fulfil, what I feel, was the reason for my being here. It doesn't mean I think that is everyone's purpose in life, but I certainly feel it is mine.

There was a post earlier in this thread about how much someone without children could achieve, and how successful they could be. For me, I'm not sure what it's worth. When my life flashes before my eyes, in those last few moments, I don't want it to be filled with career highlights - I want it to be filled full of family and love.

Um I am somebody who struggled with infertility for 10 years and had two stillborns so I'm not trying to be patronising or stop people from wanting to be mothers the reason why I said that is because if I read this thread 5 years ago, and saw all the people saying that it is their purpose in life, it would have made me feel like a massive failure. I wrote my comment to try and reassure people who are in the position I was five years ago that their life still has meaning.

zzzz that wasn't the point I was making though, many people on this thread have said that it was their sole purpose in life.

zzzz

Never having a child is not the same as losing a child, how crass to conflate the two.

Taco

Does anyone have figures for how much the NHS actually spends on IVF/infertility? Apologies if I have missed this because I have read much of the thread but on and off so haven't seen every post. I have seen a figure of £400 million per year but think that might be if NICE's reccomendation of 6 cycles is used.

I have mixed feelings overall. We have a massive deficit. The NHS was set up when medicine was much more basic, life expectancies were much shorter and IVF didn't even exist. Infertility is devastating for many people, but ultimately is not life threatening. I guess if nothing else is going to change, then the NHS will inevitably have to cut back on treatments which are not life saving eventually.

I would have said when I was younger that we should just tax the rich more/tax companies more/stop tax avoidance, but I now think these things are much easier said than done. I think a lot of the things that would raise the most taxes are unfortunately very unpopular for obvious reasons - eg the Tory's former plan to recoup social care fees after people die, reducing the personal allowance so more people pay tax (and everyone who already pays tax pays a bit more), cutting in-work benefits which cost a lot and IMO are helping keep wages artificially low, cutting pensioner benefits etc. to name just a few. Other things that would also help would be ending right to buy (which is depleting the social housing stock and leading to more housing benefit being paid to private landlords), taking measures to force people to eat more healthily and possibly controversially introducing euthanasia for those who want it - all the elderly relatives I know who have made it to their 90s and have spent several years in ailing health have said they would rather have the option. So there would definitely be things that we could do to get rid of the deficit and keep IVF, but I suspect we're just going to keep overspending and the NHS crisis is going to worsen year on year until it reaches breaking point.

Well I don't know anyone who would say losing a child is the same as not being able to have one

I think you need to calm down. Maybe respond by telling me how it's the same instead of being rude?

@TacoLover I'm so very very sorry for your losses

Where did I minimise other people's pain

Thanks for your earlier comment Taco, I'm tubeless and I have to say, it's pretty depressing reading all these comments implying that me and OH are not a family because we don't have children and how my life will not be filled with family and love if there are no children. Part of me is wondering if the outrage is because you've suggested (quite rightly) that children are not the be-all and end all and that infertility is something which you may be able to come to terms with.

banana i apologize. i realize what you and others meant.

I actually think a couple of rounds of IVF should be available.

It must be be bloody hard to see the future you planned and dreamed of disappear before your eyes.

Being childfree by choice i see it like this..............parents or would be parents do it.............so i dont have to.