...to ask why the NHS funds IVF?

[moofeatures]

I promise I'm neither an (intentionally) goady fucker, nor Katie Hopkins.

But.

Following on from a recent thread about there being a perception that public money grows on trees, I'd like to ask your stance on the NHS funding IVF.

Now, before I get flamed for my insensitivity, let me explain that I myself was diagnosed with ovarian failure in my 20s. I am still of an age where I'd meet the criteria for NHS IVF funding, which would be my only way to have a biological child. I initially grieved for this as I always assumed I'd be pregnant one day, but also from day 1 of my diagnosis I've felt that artificial reproductive hormone therapy/IUI/IVF falls outside the remit of what the NHS should provide as it serves no medically therapeutic purpose.

The logical response to my argument is: "if the only option for IVF is to privately fund, then you're depriving less affluent people the chance to become parents", which is both true and a shame... but is it the NHS's problem? Really, it's the infertility which took away that choice - and it is a choice, not a right... at least in my opinion.

Am I alone in feeling this way?

What an utterly horrid thread.

Absolutely. The NHS does not fund the cure of myrad debilitating illnesses of existing humans.

There is no right to having children.

What does this mean?

Last time I checked, we don’t live in a country like China where, until relatively recently, you had to apply for a licence to have children in certain circumstances.

Did you ever learn MR GREEN in biology at school?

I think YABU OP. Why shouldn't the NHS fund IVF? As far as I know, and I do stand to be corrected isn't there ycriteria to meet to determine if you're suitable.
Fertility problems are medical problems and not a choice so why shouldn't the NHS help with the medical problem?
Also, I think there are other treatments/procedures available on NHS that perhaps should be questioned. What about an alcoholic constantly receiving treatment and does nothing to help themself stop drinking. Gastric band procedures for people who can't won't lose weight the hard way lose weight. These are life choices - a person did not ask to have fertility problems.

Phineyj

You cannot “cure” endometriosis. It’s caused by retrograde bleeding. The symptoms abate whilst pregnant and whilst breastfeeding while you’re periods stop, but it will come back afterwards. There is no “cure”.

Sparkly curtain pole , you obviously aren’t infertile then . Perhaps the infertile diagnosis was incorrect .

I don’t think IVF should be funded on the NHS for either gay or straight couples . It should be self funded . I don’t agree with any kind of tattoo removal either

Yes because IVF and tattoo removal are totally comparable

Interesting to hear your views considering you're a midwife, OP.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/childbirth/3253775-dm-putting-me-off-going-to-an-mlu

What difference does it make if the OP’s a midwife? Are midwives not allowed have views on IVF?

Fuckedoff Clomid is not ivf. And regarding routine tests for gynaecological issues - I probably had every test there was available at the time before IVF and I’m sure that is the case for most people who go through it. It’s not an easy process and not something you walk into lightly but I’m thankful everyday for what IVF has given us and I know many other people who have been blessed with children thanks to IVF. Frankly I would have cut my right arm off if it meant I could have a baby.

I do think we need to have some serious conversations about NHS rationing in this country, but it would be best totally separated from specific conditions.

Ie, don't say "we'll fund lung cancer but not IVF," ask, "Should we fund self-inflicted conditions, and what makes something count as self-inflicted?" "Should we only fund life-threatening conditions, and how do we define life-threatening?" "How shall we balance cost versus number of years/quality of life gained?" "Are new arrivals or legal (or illegal) residents who haven't worked and paid tax always to be treated the same as people who have paid tax a long time?" "On what basis, if any, can we decide whether an expensive process (sex change treatment) is a lifestyle choice or a need?"

Medicine and social mores are changing faster and faster, and we can't just decide things disease by disease any more.

Plus, some of us take this stuff very personally! BTW two of my three children were IVF (not on the NHS) and the third was adopted (not in the UK originally).

The government have really done a number on us eh . Having to scrap over who gets what from the diminishing nhs resources

Of course people should get a chance of ivf on the nhs . As should alcoholics , drug users , obese people also get help

They’re not comparable ???? You don’t say . I was pointing out as did others that ivf wasn’t the only thing I didn’t agree with funding on the NHS .
I do think sking, riding accidents and similar should be covered out of private insurance policies

Why does it matter if OP is a midwife?

I do think sking, riding accidents and similar should be covered out of private insurance policies

And what happens to people who don’t take out that insurance? They are left with no treatment?

EllieQ

I was wondering how long it'd be until that was picked up on, well done

Yes, I am. The job came before the diagnosis which was an utter mind-fuck at the time, but I think it's helped in a really strange way. It's made me see a lot of couples who have seemingly had children because they can rather than because they should. It meant I knew, before my diagnosis, that many children needing fostering/adoption have had an incredibly rough time before they're even born and that means that forstering/adoption isn't a comparable alternative at all. My job also means I absolutely understand the financial pressure the NHS is under and the need to make savings- as I said before, everyone sees their cause as the most worthy.

I hope you can see from my previous posts in this thread that I'm actually quite flexible in my views and have conceded that several posters disagreeing with my initial post have made interesting and valid points. I'm really not sure what the answer is.

Standandwait the NICE recommendations are just that - recommendations. So like our occupational health department might recommend our department provide a standing desk for someone with back problems, but our department doesn’t have to buy one if they decide that the funds don’t allow.

As I understand it, the clinical commissioning group in each area decide what areas are going to be funded by the nhs and decide where to prioritise the ££. If there are financial pressures they can choose to cut funding to certain areas.

Generally I support the NHS paying for a limited amount of IVF for a woman who is childless (or whose child has died). I don't believe that it should matter whether the partner is male or female, nor whether the partner has children. It is something we do for the welfare of the mother.

But I would not support NHS funding for a second child for any mother.

Well they must have something in common in your view purple if you think neither should be funded. Perhaps if you explained why you don't think conditions that cause infertility should be treated that might help?

*Today 21:36 PurpleDaisies

I do think sking, riding accidents and similar should be covered out of private insurance policies

And what happens to people who don’t take out that insurance? They are left with no treatment?*

Exactly And where would those who think this draw the line ??

Ligament damage for a keen runner - no treatment

Physical job that gives you back problems - no treatment

This isn't a goody question, so I hope t doesn't come across as such and if it does I apologise - but why is adoption not a sufficient option for couples who cannot conceive? (Again I'm really sorry if that sounds goady; I'm just trying to understand)

Infertility is not a lifestyle choice!

As many people have already eloquently argued, using lifestyle choices as a method of barring people from NHS help is ridiculous. In that case, why should Type 2 diabetes suffers be treated or those with lung cancer after having smoke 40 a day for 40 years? Many, many people are treated by the NHS for self inflicted injuries and illnesses - should care be denied?

Equally those who suggest adoption as the obvious choice for infertile couples are morons! The care system is in a state. Many chn in the system come with a set of complex needs and need to go to home which contains the specialised skills sets to support these chn. It’s not the 50s. The chn waiting to be adopted are toddlers and older chn who have frequently stayed in neglectful and abusive home situations for far too long often resulting in severe attachment issues. Vulnerable infertile couples are often not the right homes for these chn (some are) but that is why a heartbreaking large number of adoptions fail.

Should cancer treatment be available to those who smoked?

Diabetes treatment for those who are over weight??

I mean, you can quit smoking... hell chances are you are aware of the risks when starting smoking so that should automatically mean you receive no funding if you become ill with a smoking related illness....

Diabetes... lose weight!

This list can go on and on.... there are plenty of things that the NHS pays for that could be argued they shouldn't be.... why should "we all" pay for your life style choices??
It's not your "right" to live a long life is it? Or to be thin?!

If you look into it, fertility rates globally are falling ! That's something that affects everyone.... the population is getting older and older not younger.....

Yes, if you hadn't guessed I had IVF on the NHS.... it was amazing going through 4 years of TTC hell just to jump through hoops to meet the criteria.
And I am amazingly grateful to the NHS for the amazingness that is my DD.... who knows maybe she'll become a Dr and treat some of you!

TheMonkeyMummy

You know what, advance search me. I don't know how many posts I've prefixed with 'midwife here', and I can assure you it's not all been an elaborate build up to this thread Does that satisfy the midwife claim? I'll PM you my PIN if it'd help. The infertility - WTF would that be a "complete lie"? Actually, I'll send you copies of my FSH and LH levels (name, NHS number and all to match my PIN) if that'd make you stop being such a presumptive twat. You reckon I've come onto MN to be goady about this issue? Why not post it in the TTC section in that case for maximum distress??? Midwives can't be infertile or question IVF funding?

NOT EVERYONE IS THE SAME, OR HAS THE SAME VIEWS OR REACTIONS, BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM LIARS.