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Trigger warning: Germain Greer's opinion on rape...

568 replies

LokiBear · 03/06/2018 09:36

I can't actually get my head around this. How can a woman think like this? I have two daughters and comments like hers frighten me. I teach consent to 15 year olds and this goes against everything I try to teach them. I just dont get how anyone can think like this.

news.sky.com/story/germaine-greer-says-most-rape-is-bad-sex-not-violent-crime-11390855

OP posts:
Luisa27 · 04/06/2018 17:35

*well

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 04/06/2018 17:38

I am generally confused.

I can certainly see how this might be evidence that Greer is a misogynist who minimises rape, but I can also see how it might clearly have been taken out of context.

After all, film reviewers struggle to write nuanced yet wholly scathing reviews that cannot be creatively quoted out of context by film studios, and they at least have the advantage of initial editorial control over their comments. People making speeches don't have that, and this isn't the first thread I've been on that ultimately hinged on the skill and reliability of the reporter.

Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 17:44

Jamie I agree, did you watch the video? The video helps a lot with context if anyone was struggling with it, plus she clearly says ‘he is raping her’ at the end. I think it’s pretty clear that the people reporting on this saw an angle and went for it.

Luisa27 · 04/06/2018 17:47

Agreed...context, nuance and the whole ethos of her speech are hugely important, not just isolated sentences with the endings chopped off Hmm

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 17:56

JamieVardysHavingAParty

If she has been taken out of context, she should clarify and seek an apology. As I have said, cannot see how her comments could be taken so out of context that the meaning is effectively reversed, unless the use of the ellipsis hides the fact that she was exemplifying a stupid opinion. Now, since the rest of her comments don't suggest that in any way whatsoever, it really does not look, to me, like that has happened. Instead, what we have here is a group of people intent on suggesting someone has been materially misrepresented, but supporting her argument (the one they say she isn't making Hmm) anyway.

Strange stuff.

RebelRogue · 04/06/2018 17:57

"Instead of thinking of rape as a spectacularly violent crime - and some rapes are - think about it as non-consensual... that is bad sex.

What they say she said.

Whats she actually said

"Instead of thinking of rape as a spectacularly violent crime - and some rapes are - think about it as - consensual, non-consensual... ,that is, bad sex.

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 18:00

RebelRogue

She self-corrected. The mistake isn't needed in the reporting because it was clearly a simple verbal correction.

Do you think she meant something other than the top version?

Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 18:02

Rebel and also finishing with ‘he is raping her’, which only makes sense if she’s saying ‘this is rape’ - otherwise she’s saying ‘this is not rape...he’s raping her’. But I think everyone on this thread knows that.

RebelRogue · 04/06/2018 18:50

@Pengggwn the way i see/hear it she was saying

Instead of thinking of rape as a spectacularly violent crime - and some rapes are - think about it as non-consensual bad sex.

And then proceeds to give an example, still calling it rape at the end.
She's not saying rape is just bad sex, she's saying that not all rapes are spectacularly violent.

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 18:53

RebelRogue

She specifically does say many rapes are 'just' bad sex. If she later contradicts herself, that's not my issue. There is no alteration to the meaning of her comment. She clearly believes we should lower rape tariffs where there is not violence over and above the act of penetrating someone without their consent.

RebelRogue · 04/06/2018 19:05

@Pengggwn her argument being that if the sentence is lower then the victim's testimony should act as evidence and taken at face value without trashing and victimising them further.

She only "proposes" lower sentences if that happens.

Why not believe the woman and lower the penalty?

Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 19:11

So wait, Pengggwyn, you really do think she’s saying ‘this isn’t rape, he’s raping her’?

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 19:21

RebelRogue

Because that is against the law. There is no possible way a victim's evidence will ever be taken on face value. An allegation is not proof and never will be.

Idiocy.

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 19:23

Pumperthepumper

I think she is saying this is treated as rape at the moment but it shouldn't be, it should be treated as 'bad sex' or 'non-consensual sex'. I can't make sense of it otherwise.

To be honest, I suspect she wasn't fully in charge of what she was saying. It's rather an incoherent mess.

Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 19:26

I think she is saying this is treated as rape at the moment but it shouldn't be, it should be treated as 'bad sex' or 'non-consensual sex'. I can't make sense of it otherwise.

So, ‘this isn’t rape, he is raping her’ makes more sense to you than ‘this is rape, he is raping her’?

RebelRogue · 04/06/2018 19:38

@Pengggwn in any other crime if the accuser says "i was ran over/mugged/assaulted" etc and points someone out that is accepted as "evidence" without questioning like " are you sure you were mugged? Isn't it possible you asked him to run you over? What were you wearing? Did you give any indication you wanted to be mugged? Have you been hit before? Do you enjoy being hit? How much did you drink?" Etc.

When it comes to rape,in most cases all the prosecution can prove is that sex took place. Only thing most victims are believed on is that they had sex. Most defendants only admit they had sex.

I probably make no sense, I apologise. Long day today..

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 19:54

So, ‘this isn’t rape, he is raping her’ makes more sense to you than ‘this is rape, he is raping her’?

To be honest, you've lost me here.
I've said what I think she is saying. I have given my view of it. I am not recognising the interpretations I am reading here in her comments overall or in the one I picked out in particular.

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 19:55

RebelRogue

That is not the same as "I was mugged by Bob Smith."

The first is a description of something that happened to you.
The second is an allegation against a person. Allegations need to be proven.

Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 19:58

Pengggwyn but you still think she’s saying ‘this is not rape’?

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 20:05

Pumperthepumper

Fundamentally, I think that is her view, yes. I think she is saying 'We call this rape, but we shouldn't'.

IDontBowlOnShabbos · 04/06/2018 20:06

I'm confused, I thought what she was saying is that many times when women have what they consider to be 'bad sex' as in, when they sleep with someone because they are pestered/drunk whatever and they don't consent but they don't fight and scream it's not bad sex but actually rape?

So what she's saying is many more women are raped but the women don't really see it as that themselves, they just feel like it was bad sex.

Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 20:06

Ok. So ‘we call this rape but we shouldnt. He’s raping her’.

Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 20:07

IDontBowl yes, that’s exactly right.

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 20:07

Pumperthepumper

Yes, I think she is saying it shouldn't be classified as rape but as 'bad sex' or non-consensual sex.

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 20:08

IDontBowlOnShabbos

No, because she is calling for the tariff to be reduced and for us to call it something other than rape.