to think British extracurricular activities are too much about competition?

[DorothyL]

Maybe it's not like this everywhere but at least in our area...
Play an instrument? Do grades
Dancing? Exams/competition team
Same for gymnastics etc
Football/rugby - make it into the team

There seems to be hardly any activity which can just be done for the enjoyment of it.
(Similar I guess to school subjects - not worth doing if you don't take an exam and achieve a top grade.)

Especially as children get older this seems to be such a shame - no opportunity to do an activity just for fun.
In the EU country I come from this is different.

Interesting choice of "Tarquin". Do I get the feeling you have a little chip on your shoulder?

Picked as it's a commonly used hypothetical name for a somewhat coddled young child and it's not one actually used by any of the kids around here. Feel free to read into it what you want to though but you're just point scoring for fun and who am I to stop you trying to show off on the internet?

@RainbowFairiesHaveNoPlot

Bless.

Music exams are, on the other hand, the only way DS was ever going to get around to learning C# minor, or four octaves of slurred arpeggios, or the inner joy of a diminished 7th.

Does it matter? Well, he's still playing now that he's left school, plays regularly in paid-for positions and can wing it in most orchestras at short notice ('it's surprising how much of it is basically just scales, really'), so I suppose it helped.

Upsideup, but that doesn't address the point of children who desperately want to but just can't, however hard they try, but who'd still like to be part of group activities.

Where I work all the activities are designed to be team building rather than competitive.

Climbing wall
Archery
Pony trekking
Kayaking
Bushcraft
Cycling
Gorge scrambling

My DS has got into Skateboarding in the past year and of all the things he does it has had the most positive effect on everything.

There are no grades, the kids progress at their own pace and there is very little rivalry. His focus is not on getting another badge or certificate or being able to declare himself at a new level it's on improving or learning a new trick or ramp or whatever and the reward is his own satisfaction. He has learnt to persevere and this has transferred into his school work and other activities. He decides what his next goal is and he is focussed on his own journey and not comparing his position with others.

children who desperately want to but just can't, however hard they try, but who'd still like to be part of group activities.

Do you mean that it is physically impossible for them for them to ever be able to do it or just they are not very good at the moment? In which if they really enjoy it, want to get better and practice they will become good. There is nothing to stop any children doing these activities at home or with their friends for fun even if there not any good, they dont have to do paid competitive clubs, no one is great at everything.

YABU.
Lots of children's activities aren't about competition.
I wouldn't say that getting a grade in music lessons is competing with anyone (even if you want to, it's a 'mark' of where you've got to, not competing against anyone, but, you don't have to take grades). Nor are choirs, nor drama groups.
Nor is swimming unless you choose to get into competitive swimming - which most youngsters don't.
Nor or THE BEST activities (IMVHO), ie, Scouts, Guides, BB, GB, etc
Nor are sports like climbing or most water sports such as kayaking and sailing. Yes - you can compete, but most people don't.
Dance can be entered in to competitions, but again, for many it is about learning skills and taking part.
Same with cycling, horse riding, and indeed, virtually every activity a child can do. That is what is great - there are competitions for those who want to, and chances to take part for those who don't.

I think your list is very selective.

Yes, certain activities have plenty of grading / competitive elements to them, but there are plenty of others that don't.

Musical instruments - yes, learning a formal instrument often involves grades, but I know plenty of children who choose not to take their grades, so it's not compulsory. What's more, orchestras are about fun and participation- there's no grading required. Some of my DC's friends do more 'rock school' type music and again there's no formal grading in that.

Drama groups are often about having fun and putting on plays. No formal assessment for my DD in that.

Other activities you can do (around my way at least) that does not include formal grading or competitions

• a whole range of sports that can be done competitively, but can just be played on a team mostly for fun, such as Netball, handball, football, cricket, bowls, sailing, rugby... these can be as competitive or as casual as you want to take it.
• Brownies, guides, Cubs, scouts
• Boys brigade and girls brigade
• Air cadets and young volunteering like youth police cadets
• St Johns Ambulance*
• forest school and youth clubs of all descripti ons
• horse riding is not competitive for the vast majority of people,*
• majorettes*
• parkour
• young farmers (can get involved in comps if you want to, but not compulsory)
• Christian youth groups*
• teen gym (gym not gymnastics!)*
• children's yoga
• choirs (including church choirs)
• bell ringing
• code club
• youth book clubs
• young archaeology club
• dancing such as street dance or Bollywood dancing, which can be done more for fun than grading.

A quick check of my local big town's offering has
all of the above on offer. So despite living rurally, I can get my kids to these all within half an hour's drive.

Personally I don't think it's the competition from the kids' point of view that is the problem. It's the fact that it enables competitive parenting, and in some places it is that which has become silly.

Book bands, EYFS outcomes, KS1 SATS, ability tables, music grades, karate belts, ballet exams, swimming stages..... Annabelle MUST be at least one higher than Lara in every activity and there will be tuition, extra sessions, private coaching etc to ensure it. They DO take it all into account for 7+ you know!

That’s a very selective list.
And I actually don’t think we are competitive enough in this country.
We are so much about the participation and taking part, which is definitely important, but we need a way to measure success.

In fact, looking at the list I listed below..

If you want to do non - competitive activities (choir, youth club, Cubs, scouts, teen gym, cadets etc) you can find it all in my village or the next one across.

But if you want to do the competitive activities (music lessons, dancing grades, competitive sports etc) you have to go to the big towns to do it.

So I'd say for me, the opposite is true.

I think it's interesting you say there's not enough competition! What do you base that on?

Music grades and dance grades are hardly about competition, and more about an individual achieving a certain level of proficiency. Additionally, at least for music, taking grading exams is not necessary and one can definitely choose not to go that route.

In terms of football or rugby, or course competition is part of the nature of taking part in the sport as integral to participating is to play matches where one team is trying to win. However, it is only the very high levels that one has to "make the team" - and most local clubs are very inclusive. They will divvy children up into A,B,C,D teams but all will participate at their level.

Competition is not a bad thing, and for sports, it is integral to progressing. Unfortunately, many promising athletes need to leave the UK to progress in their sport due to the lack of training/competition at the highest levels.

I think it would be ideal if a lot of things had a two-tiered approach: a competitive tier, and a just-for-fun tier.

Are universities actually that bothered by random grades in random extra-curriculars?

My impression (Cambridge grad) is that they were interested in people who were very passionate and knowledgeable about their chosen subject.

Do people just do extracurricular activities just to get into university? I don't think that that was the heart of the complaint.

Extracurricular activities are probably only important for medics, and that would be more about demonstrating interest in the subject and not about a random music/dance grade.

They are, however, crucial for entry into top US universities. The level they are looking for is not just getting grade 4 in piano, but international piano competitions.

Yes they are. Especially if you achieve grade 8 or above or grand prior (st johns) or gold DofE or some other achievement that shows you are a grafter with a wide interest base.

YABU. I have 3 gymnasts and an (ex) footballer on the waiting list for gymnastics. They also do beavers/cubs/brownies.

Gymnastics is recreational. Even if mine were good enough for squad, we can't afford it at the moment. They have recreational competitions so they can see how much they have improved as well as for the competitive element. Eg last time my eldest passed her level 6 proficiency, the younger two passed their level 7. It shows them that hard work can bring about its own reward in improvement in a skill.

The competitive aspect imo enables a child to learn that they can't just expect everything to be handed to them on a plate. You have to work hard for that gold medal/trophy.

Guiding and scouting is for fun but with the reward of badges to demonstrate skills learnt. There is no 'I'm better than you' in this environment because much of it is team work to achieve a goal. This is also true of team sports - working together to achieve a common goal.

My DCs have found this a real problem at uni. One had danced for 15 years but there was no way to continue unless she took part in an audition a few days in to freshers' week, was prepared to out in hours of commitment & a large outlay for kit for competitions (all around the country). She didn't dance at uni & is now fairly sedentary & a lot less healthy.
Ditto DS how plays a particular sport well, but not at county level or anything. He hasn't played at uni.
When I was at university you joined a club to play something for enjoyment. Sure there were competitive clubs/sports as well but your average person could enjoy their hobby too.

When they get to teenage years there seems to be no option to start an activity from scratch, which adds difficulty for teens with friendship issues.

Yes there is. Many cadet forces don't take them on until they turn 13.

@Buster72 those who employ graduates and professional people. They mainly want to know you don't sit around watching TV. So I've worked along side amateur astronomers, those into their fishing, artists, gardeners and those who do voluntary work as well as musicans and sports people.

Also I said some sort of team.

The team can just be a group of your mates and you can play against another group of mates. That's how two of my nephews' and a neighbour play football. There is are 5 a-side pitches not far from me where apparently you just turn up as a group of mates, and find another group of mates to play against.

One nephew also does other sports but as the UK isn't any good in the sports he plays and few people play them there are very few teams to play against if you aren't at university, so he plays more for social interaction and exercise.

I have another nephew who plays two instruments. He just mucked around for years playing with his dad, then did a few grades and then played in a band for two years. His band got to do performances and make a CD because they decided they wanted to.

I coach rugby. The thing about those who aren’t very good is that there’s a very real risk of injury. Of course my best players go into the squad.

However I also run touch tournaments where the less able get a chance (indeed first chance)

I never expect anyone to leave because they’re not as talented and I ensure that they’re equally as stimulated during training. I do however expect them to take team selection in good grace; that’s part of learning sport.

When they get to teenage years there seems to be no option to start an activity from scratch, which adds difficulty for teens with friendship issues

You certainly can in rugby.

Both DCs here do rugby, football, cricket, judo, scouts/beavers, street dance, tap dance, swimming and horse riding. I don't think I've ever thought about the competitive aspect of any of those things; they're just very physical children who love sport and love to be active.

Rugby, football and cricket are very much about the team not the individual.

Judo, horse riding and swimming are more them competing against themselves and improving personal skills.

Street dance and tap they perform in festivals and shows but, again, it's more about them doing what they love and doing it well than any kind of competitive side of things.

Scouts and Beavers are focussed on new skills and adventures and there's a huge amount of team spirit there, too.

In work, in school, in pretty much everything you could find some level of competition. But you can also opt out and make activities about fun and challenge and learning new skills. My DC don't do their activities because they want to be better than anyone; they just want to have fun.