To think men dressing up as women, is equivalent to blacking up?

[crunchymint]

Men dress up as women for a laugh. It is about laughing at a stereotype of a woman. In the same way a white person blacking up is enacting a stereotype of a black person. Both are wrong.

No idea myself really OP helpful lol but you have made me wonder if I've ever seen a woman dress up as a man for drag... do you get drag kings?!

Juells To you, sure. Men at a stag party dressed as women are amusing, because they look ridiculous. That’s the whole point. They aren’t making fun of women, they’re making fun of themselves

YANBU

I semi-disagree.
Men dressing up as women purely for laughs, focusing on how humiliating it is to be associated with the feminine - that is like blacking up.

But men should be entirely free to wear dresses, skirts and makeup. Let clothes be clothes. If a man buys a skirt he likes and wears it, it is not a woman's skirt, it is his skirt. I do not want womanhood to be tied to a particular way of dressing.

Yabvfu

I am black British.

I agree in that I find "woman face" offensive in all its forms when done for entertainment or "a laugh".

No, because women have not been property of their male relatives since, it appears, before the Norman Conquest.

Unless you mean "property" in some kind of rhetorical sense.

I find any attempt to diminish the physical, mental or economic suffering of women at the hands of men throughout history appalling. This is not some "whataboutery" game of one-upmanship against the slave trade. It is also about looking beyond a Westernised modern stance. There is no one or the other - they both stand.

Just off the top of my head:

Women raped during occupation:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany]

www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11

Women abducted in modern times:

time.com/5175464/boko-haram-kidnap-dapchi-schoolgirls/

News report from today about 'modern slavery' - sex trafficking:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sex-trafficking-industrial-scale-prostitution-pop-up-brothels-appg-mps-a8360756.html

Women given dogs to protect them from violent men:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-44003846/domestic-violence-my-dog-defends-me-from-my-abuser

Girl convicted of stabbing a man she was forced to marry, after he raped her:

news.un.org/en/story/2018/05/1010162

Women allowed to go to football matches for the first time:

www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/saudi-arabia-women-attend-football-matches-for-first-time-a8151151.html

It was only in 1991 that rape within marriage became illegal; we have only had the vote 100 years. Two women a week are killed by their partner. We are still paid less within various sectors. Yes, we have privileges, but there is still a way to go.

This thread is embarrassing.

You can't deny the power of the patriarchy but it is massively insensitive and pretty disgusting to try and lump it in with the Atlantic slave trade. (Which many women benefitted from.)

You cannot equate two issues. They are not the same at all.

Saying 'Go and read up about x subject properly' is not a constructive response to a debate, especially if that's ALL you're going to say

However, I do agree that I didn't properly think through why I object to the OP. The issue as I see it is that the oppression of women (current and historical) is completely different to the oppression of black people (current and historical). To the point that it's meaningless to compare them. Saying 'but women were slaves too' is a facile argument. If you think drag acts should be banned on the grounds that they're offensive, fair enough. Comparing it to blackface though, is just going to piss off a lot of people whose experiences of racism far outstrip their experiences of sexism.

Read "Property" by Valerie Martin. She does just that.

Oh well, she must be right then. Now I see the error of my ways. I didn't realise someone had written a book contrary to my own point of view.

OK, sorry, bit snappy at the moment. But it is frustrating to twice get the response 'Go and read x' rather than somebody's own viewpoint!

Yes I agree with you. It’s SOOOO funny to pretend to be a mere woman.

And Property does actually look interesting, as does Cambridge by Caryl Phillips, so I may in fact add those to my wishlist.

All those denying ownership of women being a recent thing.....how are you squaring marital rape being not possible until 1991...apologies if
I've missed it, I have skimmed.

Sorry they’re no such thing as a cis anything!!!!!

It’s a woman!! Educate yourself

Sorry wasn't trying to be sarky just this topic made me think of a (fiction) book I read a while ago which was quite good. Not saying it proves anything either way but was thought provoking if grim read

I do get where you are coming from and think drag will become increasingly unacceptable. There was a hospital recently that stopped male fundraisers dressing up as ‘sexy nurses’ good to see some thought going into it.

Drag acts don’t bother me but what I hate is seeing a stag party where they have dressed the stag up as women - I don’t get what is so funny or embarrassing.

I cannot eye roll hard enough at this thread. The very fact that Lily Savage and Mrs Brown are being used as examples of how offensive drag is seriously says it all. If you can unclench long enough- maybe take yourself to a drag show (a proper one.) You might surprise yourself

heykitty just because you don't find it offensive, doesn't mean it isn't.

Personally I hate Mrs Brown, because it's asinine and irritating. The fact that it's drag too is the cherry on top.

I agree with you re Mrs Brown. Boring, unfunny and crass. What I mean is people think this is the be all and end all of drag... hardly. It's quite offensive to lump bio queens, drag kings and other acts who defy the stereotypical 'bloke in a dress' drag with Mrs Brown

You should do some research into the social history of drag queens OP - they've been on the front line of fighting for the rights of women, gays and POC for decades.

If I was black, I would find it so offensive how 'poc' is rolled out whenever anyone wants to sound intersectional.

Some poc are gay. Probably 51% of poc are women.

Poc are not a separate species to be mentioned casually when one want to be thought of as considering all oppressed groups.

It makes me very uncomfortable. I'd bet a good 90% of people throwing about the term 'poc' in online debates don't really know much or care about what issues black women really face.