To be disgusted that Dr Christian Jessen considers some kinds of child rape to be morally excusable on cultural grounds

[frankexchangeofviews]

I’ve just seen this exchange between ‘tv celebrity’ doctor Christian Jessen and an other Dr who is a spokesman for the Green Party on twitter. Are they saying what I think they are saying? Child’s marriage is recognised as a crime worldwide that needs to be stopped , not condoned on the basis of cultural relativism. Maybe they think african girls don’t mind as much???? Or are happy to be mothers at 13. I can’t get my head around it at all.

"The age of consent in vietnam is 18"

No it isn't.

www.satregional.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Age-of-consent-Vietnam.pdf

Don't be a poorly informed keyboard warrior.

So who gets to decide if something done in another culture should be allowed

If it's within this country and it's breaking the law, well, it's the law who decides.

But as one of the few posters on here who actually has lived insight into the culture you can be expected to be politely sidestepped while the keyboard warriors carry on.

I have also lived in a culture where child marriage is common and where girls often have to leave school when they start menstruating. In the area I lived in, polygamy was uncommon, but at the time I was there HIV was very prevalent (now thankfully reduced) so formal or informal marriage of a 13, 14, 15 year old to a much older man as a form of "fostering her out" because her parents had died was VERY common.

It is not much good having access to a better diet (which you don't get to eat because men get all the meat anyway, as they take from the plate first) if you then die in childbirth, have a fistula or your body is destroyed due to early pregnancy.

And some girls were drawn in to informal relationships specifically because their older partners would buy them gifts and food. That doesn't make it good for them. That just makes it exploitative.

And yes, families would say "we're not sending her to secondary school because she'll just get a boyfriend/get pregnant" but the stats show that girls who DO have a secondary education do better and marry later, and have lower rates of pregnancy

This stuff about applying morals to other cultures reminds me of the idea of applying morals to other times. For example, it is now considered rape for a man to have sex with someone who is intoxicated, whereas 20+ years ago few people would have used that definition, which makes many millions of our ancestors rapists.

Can we judge people in the past or from different cultures by our standards today? Hard to say.

So who gets to decide if something done in another culture should be allowed?

For me it's not about cultures, it's about a fundamental belief in equality. Denying a person an education or livelihood opportunities or the opportunity to participate in civil society or subjecting them to violence on the basis of their sex, race or sexual orientation is just wrong. The end.

Culture is not a unit of law. Countries are. And I'd say, generally speaking, the people who live there (although I think we are perfectly entitled to have opinions (nice if they were informed ones but) and to make our trade or aid dependent on certain conditions). The reality though is we'll trade with anybody if it benefits us, and meddle to ensure the terms of trade are in our favour. And our aid is often not effective enough because we don't like to spend on overheads (like talking to people, learning about their lives, ensuring the money is well spent) only "stuff" and we jump from one new initiative to another "now you have to plant trees" "now you have to dig a well" "now we want to teach mothers how to read" so donors don't get bored. Oh and lots of aid isn't actually aid at all (we'll pay for your new hospital but you have to give this company the contract to build it).

It was the first country i found on wikipedia with 18. Idgaf - the point is other countries have higher than uk and would we be happy for people from bahrain saying were sick sexual predators for having sex with 16 year old children

And yes, families would say "we're not sending her to secondary school because she'll just get a boyfriend/get pregnant" but the stats show that girls who DO have a secondary education do better and marry later, and have lower rates of pregnancy

Absolutely. There's a concerted effort in India now between development agencies and NGOs to really focus on keeping girls in school because the correlation between more years of education and later marriage, later motherhood, child immunisation and nutrition and income generation are so strong. Education also correlates negatively with susceptibility to domestic violence.

and we jump from one new initiative to another "now you have to plant trees" "now you have to dig a well" "now we want to teach mothers how to read

Doesn't sound overly difficult to be honest.

"but the stats show that girls who DO have a secondary education do better and marry later, and have lower rates of pregnancy"

Which demonstrates the benefit of education, which I don't think anyone is arguing about. But where there is no education, is early marriage better or worse -all other things being equal? I think it would depend on the exact conditions / culture you are living in (which varied a lot in my particular area, let alone globally). So in my village rates of HIV infection were higher in girls with secondary school education (for a variety of reasons, chief of which was sexual exploitation) and yes husbands got more food and healthcare than wives but wives got more than children, and that difference was often the difference bw life and death.

mellowW - I think he is a misogynist because of the many misogynistic things he's said over years and as I mixed race woman I can say with great confidence that a LOT of white people think black/brown women do not deserve the protection of white women.

You post shows a lack of ability to consider others views - a case of physician - heal thy self.

@Barbarian

‘Better access to food’ - greater need for food to feed children, ‘more likelihood of access to medical care’ - greater likelihood of need for medical care.

Teenage girls 15 - 19 in developing countries are twice as likely to die during pregnancy or child birth as those over age 20, and girls under 15 are 5 times more likely to die.

2 million young women have medically unsafe abortions annually in the developing world.

In Nigeria, complications of abortion account for 72% of all deaths in girls under age 19.

Child marriage also puts young women at greater risk of HIV. Studies in Kenya and Zambia found that married 16- to 19-year-old females were 75 % more likely to have HIV than unmarried sexually active girls.

Younger girls report much greater difficulty discussing contraception with their husbands.

But then I think about how we've let 10,000 young people be abused and raped in this country by "sex gangs" and realise that we're far more concerned about being or appearing to be politically correct then actually caring about our children.

Female politicians were trying to be heard about that for years, from way back in the nineties IIRC, so the blame isn't evenly spread.

Female politicians were trying to be heard about that for years, from way back in the nineties IIRC

I'd really be very pleased if you've got any evidence or links to support this as I really don't think it's true. Do you?

A further thought. The UN and its agencies have a running campaign to forbid marriage under 18. In the U.K. the age is 16; parental consent is necessary under 18 except in Scotland.

There are now very few such marriages - but does anyone else think we should tell the UN to wind its collective neck in?

Apart from anything else to make the age for marriage higher than the age of consent is absurd and raising the age of consent to 18 would be the triumph of hope over experience!

And most girls seeking abortion are unmarried. So, bizarrely, child marriage lowers the risk of death through unsafe abortion, even though it increases the risk of death in childbirth.

As I said, the trend varies from area to area, probably even within countries, let alone between them. It varied in our village depending on which tribe you were in ffs.

And again, I'm not advocating child marriage. I am saying that how best to prevent it is far more complex than simply making it illegal and generally starts with better access to food, healthcare and education.

"So who gets to decide if something done in another culture should be allowed?

For me it's not about cultures, it's about a fundamental belief in equality. Denying a person an education or livelihood opportunities or the opportunity to participate in civil society or subjecting them to violence on the basis of their sex, race or sexual orientation is just wrong. The end."

Or in other words Universal Human Rights.

I am so forcefully reminded of criticisms that were leveled against the Women's Abolitionist movement in the early C19th USA; they did not understand, they were inappropriately imposing their own values
blah blah blah. I bet someone accused them of 'frothing', or heavens even 'pearl clutching'.

@A4710Rider
I'd really be very pleased if you've got any evidence or links to support this as I really don't think it's true. Do you?

Yes I do, that's why I said it. How about you, do you often post things you think aren't true?

First wives are treated better assuming they survive childbirth, and arent shunned for post birth injuries.

Child marriage is not giving them better opportunities if comes with an increased risk of dying.

Yes I do, that's why I said it

Well can you share it with me please. As far as I am concerned, no one spoke out, at all, ever, at least not until the very end...

If you've got something that proves me wrong I'd really love to see it, read it.

They’re both married and unmarried. It’s 72% of all deaths of women under 19, not just unmarried women. It’s due to lack of access to contraception.

Can you split down the number by married/unmarried? Ime (which tbf is some years out of date now) abortion was more common amongst unmarried girls because of the difficulties/stigma of having a child out of wedlock and because they wanted to do things like not get married/ stay in education/ have a career. Married girls tended to want babies because giving your husband children increased your status and were your labour force/route to an easier life/greater wealth (and because infertile women were more likely to be divorced or replaced). I'm sure there were women who sort abortion as a way of spacing their children/limiting the number of children they had but in my area they were rare. (A friend of mine was the midwife/nurse in the health clinic in the next town if you are wondering how I know this stuff).

Oh and a note on health statistics in rural Nigeria - they are pretty useless. Perfectly possible to be born, live and die without anyone in authority knowing. Esp if you are living remotely, or are nomadic, or extremely poor. Most of my village never went to school or saw a doctor. There was a census once (all our houses had ref numbers daubed on them) but no one knows what happened to those people. Die and you got buried within 24 hours (Christian, Muslim, traditional religions alike). No one recorded what you died of and often they didn't know. I was there when AIDS really got going. Most deaths were (immediately) down to malaria - the underlying cause wasn't recorded. Most people hadn't even heard of HIV/AIDS, but infection rates were c20%

So by their measure the British attempts to stamp out Sati (burning widows) and female infanticide in India was 'Colonial' and 'Culturally insensitive'. Some people are just so up their own arse they can't see clear moral absolutes.
Interesting resultant discussion though.

Barbarianmum what you says about statistics is true but Im not sure of your point.

It sounds as if your saying those poor girls who died before maturity because they married young dont count, because no one has counted them?