To think no-one can censor my right to express my belief?

[MrsWooster]

I have stolen this from twitter and tweaked it.

I am an atheist: my belief is that no deity exists.
Despite it being offensive to them,
I am not forced by religious people to believe in any gods

I am an atransgenderist : my belief is that no-one can ever change their sex.

Despite it being it being offensive to some, I cannot be forced to believe anyone can change their sex.

I cannot see a difference between these two statements - a religious person may define themself entirely in terms of their religion as a trans person identifies themselves wholly in terms of their gender id yet the first will be permitted and the second not.
#mumsnettransphobia is an attack on free speech.

Belief is a protected characteristic. Its not hard to believe in facts and science, there are thousands of examples in real life to base your belief system on, so YANBU.

You're not forced to believe in God but you are required by law to not use hate speech or discriminate on the grounds of religion.

You can hold any views you like, there are laws around speaking them though, as there should be.

it doesn't work very well as most religious people aren't offended by your lack of belief

I would say anyone who want there whole life to revolve around their gender, a pretty mundane thing, needs more things do.

I believe in god - accept some people dont
I believe people are born in the correct body and have trouble accepting themselves - others dont

But.. why would i get so much stick for the one and not the other! Agree with you OP.

The difference is that religious belief is a matter of faith in the unproveable whereas belief in transgender is a matter of legal (but not biological) fact. Legally someone can change their sex. You might as well say you don't believe in parking restrictions - morally you might be opposed, but legally they exist.

Doesn't work tbh. I am anti self ID and even I can see the difference. Bring an atheist just means you don't believe the same as someone else. Being 'anti trans' means you disagree with someone else's identity and their right to be who they think they are.

But just because a law has allowed someone to change their sex. doesnt change the fact that I believe they were born as they should be and have issues accepting themselves.

Its still the same thing - My belief

Laws have got it wrong in the past and have been changed because of peoples beliefs

You might believe that sex and gender are the same thing and that a person therefore cannot be trans. But that isn't really supported by the lived experiences of trans people, or the ever more sophisticated medical, biological and psychiatric evidence which supports the assertion that sex and gender are distinct things and that being a woman doesn't require female biology.

And if the beliefs you hold are damaging to a class of people, those in that class and their allies are entitled to call you out for the harm you are causing.

It doesn't cause me any harm if another person believes in god. But it does cause trans people harm when you don't believe they exist.

You can believe whatever you like and nobody can stop you. But you don't have any absolute right to express beliefs which harm others and face no repercussions for the harm you cause.

Myotheruser- honestly i totally get that. Not saying my belief is right, its just my belief thats all. I mean no harm to anyone, just cant force myself to believe something different

Take the chip off your shoulder - no-one is forcing you to believe that anyone has actually, genuinely changed their sex. The hope is that you'd be respectful and empathetic but the tone of your post suggests you're looking for excuses not to be. Not believing in god is in no way analogous to not believing in peoples' right to identify as a different gender. Your analogy is garbled.

What do you get from being transphobic? What difference does it make to your life how someone else identifies?

I was hoping this would be about anything else really.

A flat earther would be good. Or a dinosaur denier.

A flat earther would be good Yep, like whoever in the Flat Earth Society (or whatever it's called) that tweeted about having believers "all around the world"

the ever more sophisticated medical, biological and psychiatric evidence which supports the assertion that sex and gender are distinct things and that being a woman doesn't require female biology.

Do you have any evidence of this whatsoever?

OP I agree with you. I can no more force myself to believe that a man is a woman than I can that another man rose from the dead.

And I don't much care for being legally forced to lie. Still, at least we're not being burned at the stake for our heresy yet.

This trans debate has lost all nuance now, and it's just two sets of people arguing from their own set of false assumptions.

Look, I'll try and make it simple for you.

It's perfectly alright to oppose self-ID laws. I don't agree with them myself. I worry they could be abused by people who are not transgender

However, it's not alright to deny that trans people exist. I cannot see any reason why so many people would decide to live as the opposite gender and forfeit their ability to have biological children by taking hormones, if they didn't have some deep feeling inside them that they were not in the right body.

Everybody needs to take a step back and calm down. On both sides.

@maxthemartian I don't think you can claim to be being 'legally forced to lie' when the factual position here is a) widely disputed and b) possibly not something that can even be determined within the limits of current scientific understanding.

Atheists have no belief (in a God). God will not suffer from you not believing in him/her.

You voicing your ‘not-believing in trans people’ does do harm. Direct, painful harm to a vulnerable group of people.

So the least you could do is keep it to yourself.

Maybe it's a mental illness, maybe it's not, but if it makes them happy to live as the opposite gender, then live and let live.

Op you are being too literal and probably I think it’s deliberate.

How about when a baby is given up for adoption by the birth parents and then another couple legally adopt that baby. That child is then their son or daughter legally. Would you say that it’s “untrue” that the child is their son/daughter because s/he didn’t grow in that woman’s uterus and isn’t biologically related to either of them? Or course you wouldn’t. And you’d probably be in breech of some anti discrimination law.

Same with trans. People change sex, legally. You need to comply with the law or lobby to have it changed.

Its much more similar to saying that you don't believe homosexuality exists.
Just because some girls in a club might have a snog to play to the male audience doesn't mean lesbians don't exist, and just because a few people might "self ID" as trans when they aren't doesn't mean that transgender people don't exist.

The vast majority of both just want to get on with their lives quietly and be shown the decency and respect that all people should get and really aren't looking for your permission to be who they are.

No-one disbelieve that transpeople exist though?
Some of us believe that a) you can't change sex b) gender is a social construct not an identity.
This shouldn't be remotely controversial.

I Think Hideandgo sums it up perfectly.

Keep it to yourself.

I do not believe in god.
I am not transgender.

I realise that other people are different to me.

“No it's not!" said Constable Visit. "Atheism is a denial of a god."

"Therefore It Is A Religious Position," said Dorfl. "Indeed, A True Atheist Thinks Of The Gods Constantly, Albeit In Terms of Denial. Therefore, Atheism Is A Form Of Belief. If The Atheist Truly Did Not Believe, He Or She Would Not Bother To Deny.”

― Terry Pratchett, Feet of Clay

Boney, I love that. Food for thought! But I would argue that the only reason it needs denied is that others believe it, not because you think of it therefore it’s an existence needing denial.