To expect my child to sleep!

[Allyg1185]

Bit of history first. My 6 year ds 7 in two months has never been a good sleeper. As a new born he would be awake almost all day looking around him. As a toddler he would be up for periods during the night unsettled. As he got older I managed to go from sitting in the room with him till he fell asleep to through in my room to eventually downstairs. Then things settled down during the night and this is where we are today.

For the past year and a half he has a carry on at bedtime. We have the same routine. He gets plenty warning its coming up to bed time. Then we go upstairs brush teeth, try for the toilet, story, kiss and cuddle then I come downstairs. Then the fun begins!

Within minutes hes up at the top of the stairs with various excuses. There is many to hot, to cold, not tired, needs more water, wants jammies off etc etc this can go on for an hour. Up at least twice but can be as much as 4 or 5. Eventually he settles around 9pmish. Sorry I should have said he goes to bed around 8pm.

Once hes asleep hes only up once for a pee and goes straight back to sleep but hes up really early around 6am or just before. I tell him to go back to bed. Hes got a clock in his room and I tell him hes not allowed to come back until 7.00am. However hes through countless times telling me he is bored and not tired.

Just seems like I get one area of his sleep sorted and another problem starts.

Hes very active and is always out playing with his friends after school either bikes or trampolines or climbing trees. Attends swimmimg class one night a week and we are and outdoorsy active family at the weekends.

I should add it doesn't matter how late he goes to bed hes still up really early.

I think I've added as much information as I can.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

I'd ignore the mornings for now, and concentrate on the evenings initially.

What happens if you just send him to bed at 9pm? Do you still get all the carry on, or will he settle straight away?
My 8 yr old goes to sleep at 8.30, but is awake at 5. This suits us, but to get a 7am wake up, he would need to go to bed at 10.30. Unfortunately some kids just need less sleep than others.
I know you say he isn't reading independently yet, but might familiar books keep him occupied in the mornings? An hour on your own is a very long tine at that age. Can you compromise at 6.30?
We have a sunrise clock - so it lights up at (change these hours - school starts early here) 5.15, and sounds a gentle alarm at 5.45 on school days. If the light is on, he can look at books. If the alarm sounds (school days), it the digital clock reads 6-something he can get up.

Good luck - I've found it tough, but have always been early to bed, early to rise. DH really struggles with the very early starts - a weekend lie in here is now 8am for the adult yawn

I would try an 8.30 bedtime and a few books on his bed (he doesn't need to be able to read independently to look at books) and low lighting to wind down. He might just not be ready to go to sleep at 8, my older boys (7&5) go to sleep around 9ish sometimes later for my older son.

As for the early starts, i would compromise. An hour is quite a long time to entertain himself, so i would say 30 mins to entertain himself in his room playing quietly with lego etc and then he can come in.

Oh and i wouldn't punish over sleep. Imagine being punished because you can't get to sleep!

My almost 8 year old has woken at 5.30 for a good few years now. He knows not to wake anyone else up and he entertains himself until time for everyone else to get up. Fortunately he is a sleep when head hits the pillow sort of a boy which helps.
I do however have an 11 year old step son who struggles to get to and stay asleep. I appreciate he is older than yours but the only thing that has worked for him is being very firm about the fact he isn't allowed out of bed once there, isn't allowed to wake others and that there are consequences if these things are done. He can have a night light on and read but no electronics or music as it keep others awake.

Can't he just go downstairs and put the tv on in the morning? Why does he need anyone else up?

Thanks for all the advice. We have made up a box with colouring books, magazine, paper, pens for writing and colouring pens, a childs crossword book and other things in. His clock is next to his bed and we discussed the box is there for him to keep himself entertained if hes up early.

He does sometimes come downstairs himself but usually comes looking for me after ten minute wanting me to join him

Ds sleeps with loads of Lego he's been fiddling with before he nods off. Or sticker books etc. We have to go in and clear his bed out after he's asleep.

The best thing is that I can put him to bed a bit earlier if needed and he'll play as long as he needs to (with cds). Sometimes he nods of quite early so clearly was tired. Other times it's 8:30 and just isn't tired. There's the odd night where he keeps coming down but those nights are usually when he's genuinely got some sort of issue.

Dh is letting him stay up later tonight playing quietly downstairs as I'm needing a very early night!

I agree, no punishments around not being able to sleep.

i think people with early risers dont all find it ideal and would love an extra hour or two too, but 6 is a perfectly normal time for a child to wake up.
I would concentrate on getting him to read or play quietly till 7 or watch telly quietly.

I understand that the ideal is to tell a child its bedtime and they then go to bed and fall straight asleep and then dont get up in the morning until the adults are fully rested and ready, but thats not generally real life with children.

Did the busy box work this morning?

I understand that the ideal is to tell a child its bedtime and they then go to bed and fall straight asleep and then dont get up in the morning until the adults are fully rested and ready, but thats not generally real life with children.

This made me laugh!

But you know if your child is an early waker, then by age 7 you can teach them not to wake you up! Different when they are 3 or 4.

dd2 still wakes at 6 ish, she is ten. The rest of the family like to sleep in the mornings. Since she was 5/6 she has learnt not to wake us up before 7. And as she got older I was able to add in that she had to use the downstairs loo to stop the bang of the bathroom door.

Now she is ten, and comes down, lets dog out for a wee, goes to the loo, lets dog in, and goes into the lounge, puts on TV, gets out her colouring, at some point gets breakfast etc. When I get up I never know if she is up or not as she is quiet.
I have had to teach her, but at 7 she was able to do it, and at age 7 she wasn't allowed to come downstairs until 7. (otherwise she got earlier and earlier, I once heard her downstairs and it was 4 am!) Now she is 10, she comes down when she wakes up.

I think some kids naturally need less sleep than others. You can look at recommended amounts but if you take adults as an example, the recommendation is 8, some people say they manage on 5, others need 9. I say this as my daughter was a good sleeper but my son was like yours. You’re saying he usually gets to sleep around 9 and wakes at 6, so he clearly only needs 9 hours.

You can fight against it but it’s leading to frustration for you both. The way I managed it with my son is he had to be in his room at the time I stated, let’s say 8 (can’t remember as it was so long ago) and he could do “quiet play” until sleep time. Things like books, Lego, colouring. Basically things which weren’t over stimulating. He’s late 20’s now and still only sleeps max 6 hours a night. I’m not sure he has ever slept more than 8 hours in one stretch from the day he was born!

Have you watched Supernanny? First time he gets up, take him back "It's bed time (darling, etc. if you use a pet name)." Second time "Bed time" And all the times after that, nothing. You just take him back to bed as many times as it takes for him to sleep. If you respond to those "too hot, too cold" things he's saying (which are all to get you to keep him up longer) then you're enabling his behaviour. It works, it's just about perseverance.

I have one like this. He is 11 now but we have battled at bedtime since he was small. We tried everything....
Like my ds yours probably doesn't need that much sleep. If you can accept that now you will get your evenings back and not lose them for years like I have ny not believing it.
Come to an agreement with him that he has to be in bed and stay there at 8:00. But he can read/look at books/magazines until he is tired then turn the light (have a bedside lamp ) off himself. It may take a bit of time for him to get used to it.
The doctor advised giving him magnesium supplement to help his body relax at bedtime.
My ds is also very active. Eats well. No screens in the evening etc. ...

...Ort exactly what storm4star says....

I don’t understand the obsession with bed times. If the child concerned obviously isn’t getting enough sleep then something needs to be done, but if they are, and the OP’s son obviously is, then why all the angst?

Personally, I'd try a later bed time and just ignore him, as harsh as it sounds!

My eldest can be like this and he's 5. We have bed time at 7pm cos that's when our 3yo is ready to sleep. Eldest goes to bed then too. He can go to sleep or he is allowed to play in bed but not disturb his brother. Some nights he's asleep in minutes, other nights he's still awake until 9pm. I generally try to ignore him if he's asking for one of us.

As for the mornings, I don't think there's much you can do to stop him waking up. Just tell him to play in his room and you're not going to be up until 7am.

We do still have a stair gate on our kids door for the youngest, which does make it easier, but even when they are shouting me, opening the gate etc I lie in bed and refuse to get up before 7! Just ignoring them encourages them to bugger off back to their own room and play.

I also set my alarm every day for 7am and loud enough so they can hear it. We live in a small house so it's not too loud!! They know mummy is not getting up until the alarm goes off.

I think the issue here is quite simple- your DS just isn't tired at the time you're putting him to bed or he wouldn't be getting up.

Rather than punishing him for his body clock, surely it makes sense for him to go to bed at a time he is actually tired and will sleep instead of insisting on an arbitrary time.

I would add I find some of the suggestions on here of removing possessions just because he isn't tired bordering on abusive tbh. If he's not getting enough sleep and is getting up just for the sake of it, it's clearly more of a behaviour issue and should be dealt with as such.

But when he's getting up early every day, he obviously just doesn't need as much sleep as others. Why you wouldn't just accept this and let him go to bed when he's actually tired- avoiding all the angst for him and you is beyond me. How would you like it if you were told you had to be in bed at 8pm regardless of how tired you were, and you'd be having your phone and jewellery removed if you didn't comply?

The obsession this country has with arbitrary bedtimes regardless of the individual child's needs is completely bizarre, and we'd do well to emulate countries such as Spain which have a more relaxed attitude, less stress and a better quality of life.

No one's said remove things because he's not tired.

No one says he has to sleep.

The punishment is for the nonsense behaviour when he's old enough to know he should stay in his room.

And actually I'd say that if he wasn't tired he wouldn't be avoiding being still and quiet. It's very likely he's trying to stop himself from going to sleep .

And actually there will be times, think cub camps, or stays in hotels or sleepovers or whatever where once they have been told lights out he will not be able to be up and down screeching for an hour and disturbing every body. He will be expected to either go to sleep or play nicely and quietly til he's tired. What of his mum is really ill and needs to lie down and ca5bt be getting up every five seconds.

It's not a bad habit to get into to learn to stay in your room and not disturb everyone else

It’s really bad sleepy hygiene to be playing in your room or to be forced to stay in bed even if you aren’t tired.

This isn’t a problem for most people/children but for the few who do genuinely find it hard to sleep, the whole ‘stay in your bed’ mantra is counter productive.

Then they can sit on the floor and play with some Lego.

Read on their bean bag

Draw/colour

Watch a DVD on a timer

Anything but be up and down every five minutes.

If you think that removing possessions is bordering on abusive, I think you've led a very charmed life.

I agree with others, that 9 hours is probably just what he naturally needs. But I absolutely understand that you need your downtime and headspace at the end of each day. I'm the same - I just need the kids to be out of my immediate contact so I can relax enough for my own bedtime.

My dd is 8 soon and has frequent nights like this. What works for us is not feeding the complaints. Most of what she asks is something she can fix herself - toilet, temperature, drink. If she's "not tired" she's told to read for a bit longer.

We have to be like a stuck record with her - variations on a theme of " that's fine, but coming down isn't going to help you get tired. Lie down until sleep happens". When she knows it's the same old response, she gets bored and stays up there and falls asleep.