To wonder why Jeremy corbyn and labour supports can't stop being anti semantic?

[jnfrrss]

Why is there still such a problem with labour? As unpopular as the Tories are they aren't going to get elected while they keep harbouring such views.

I'm getting increasingly concerned that Tories will remain in power

Part of the problem is that the Labour Party's internal disciplinary processes, in seeking to be fair, are also cumbersome and long-winded. (The process was once described by a prominent Labour figure as "12 people taking a year and 10 meetings to decided who told who to fuck off"). Adherence to the rules means that swift action isn't possible.

I've no doubt that there are some anti-Semites in the party. It's a large organisation, and any large organisation will include some people with anti-Semitic (or racist, sexist, or homophobic views).

The waters are muddied by the efforts on the part of a section of the Jewish community to dismiss any criticism of Israeli expansionist policies in Palestine as anti-Semitism. It's a rather crude way of trying to shut down debate.

The Labour party is a much younger organisation than it used to be, and no-one much under 50 will remember the days before the illegal expansion beyond the 1947 borders. That perhaps accounts for more anti-Zionist sentiment on the left. Let's not forget that the left was in the vanguard of fighting against anti-Semitism in the 1930's, and I've no doubt that if the fascists were to march down Cable Street again, inciting up hatred of the Jews, the left would once again be out in force to defend them.

Israel has always been a tricky issue for those who believe that state and religion should be separate entities, which is a pretty mainstream position on the left. I think that people who once would have felt that Israel was a special case are losing patience because of what has been happening in Palestine and now questioning whether a Zionist state is such a good idea.

Anyway, I think the furore is being stirred up in an attempt to discredit Labour. I strongly suspect that the numbers of genuine anti-Semites in the Labour party are fewer than the numbers of racists in the Tory party. After all, look how they behaved towards the Windrush descendants.

They redefined what anti-semitism means, so now you cant even criticise Netanyahus policies without being called an anti-semite.

Its really hard to know what to say, when criticising a heavily armed israeli police guards right to shoot unarmed palestinian children, or turning off the gaza strips water supply, is so obviously terribly racist.

I think Lakielady has it spot on.

I'm sure there is anti-Semitism within the Labour party. I'm also sure there is a hella lot within the hard of the conservative party, and the lib dems. I think pro Palestinian, anti zionist feeling is more likely to be mainstream within Labour and that makes any anti-Semitism more noticable. I think the spotlight should therefore be on rooting out anti-Semitism in all parties, instead of presenting it as conservative et al, clean < Labour/dirty issue as it is now. Like its only in one place.

I think putting the spotlight only on Labour, is a fairly successful tactic of the right wing, corporate allied press in this country primarily to discredit labour and Corbyn.

Frankly I am sick of everything being blamed on Corbyn. Yes hevdeserves criticism, of course he does, but he has really been slurred a lot, inferred he is a coward for not being pro war etc etc. I noted that little talk was made of large Russian donors to the Conservative party during the Salisbury poisoning, with many 'journalists' deciding instead to focus on whether Corbyns anti-war stance meant he was unfit to be PM! I know the press being predominantly right wing will criticise Labour, but honestly its been way over the top now and its obvious to many people. I have just started switching off.

People want a plurality of views and the UK media so obviously has its own agenda, when you see the BBC getting in on the act as well, you start going elsewhere to get your news, this is actually more dangerous to religious and ethnic minorities. People are turning to the Alt-right to get alternative views on what is going on in the world, or the really hard left. A lot of people prefer to watch RT or Aljazeera now than the BBC and of course these have their own slant. I like to listen to radio news but every other day there is a bash Corbyn day. I increasingly go elsewhere to get commentary on the news. I honestly think opinion of the mainstream press is the lowest its ever been to the point that people question everything they read and hear these days.

Anyone who seriously poses a threat to elite power in this country would be in for the same treatment from the press. Anyone.

Israel is the size of Wales and is surrounded by people who want it to not exist. Hence it needs to defend itself from tunnellers, missiles etc.
Yes there is a section of the extreme Jewish community who keep building settlements and the Israeli government should clamp down on them, but they don’t because the fundamentalists believe it is there right.
Jeremy C is either naive or disingenuous. His attendance at Passover meal was odd. Most Jews support Israel. He chose to attend a minority extreme meal where most Jews would be uncomfortable.
I have always voted Labour but last election refused to do so because he would not stand down and thus gave May the green light. I wasted my vote on Lib Dem because I had no idea who was least atrocious.

Their

safari

In the middle of a row over anti-semitism in the LP, where Corbyn's supporters staged a counter demonstration 'to support Jeremy', Corbyn chose to spend 4 hours at a Passover event with Jewdas. This is a far-left anti-establishment fringe group, pro-Corbyn and hostile to the mainstream Jewish leadership. When the leader of the Jewish Board of Deputies' name was mentioned, they jeered.

Now what sort of message do you think Corbyn was sending by choosing this event over all the others he might have attended if he'd wanted to celebrate Passover?

I've seen Corbyn being anti-semitic. And so has everyone else who watched national news on the day the Chakrabarti Report was released.
At the press conference, he stood there like a pillock while an LP activist member of Momentum aggressively berated Ruth Smeeth for colluding with the media. And did nothing. He was later filmed having a chummy chat with her abuser.

I've given up thinking 'he's a nice man, BUT'. There have been too many incidents where he's used the excuse of not noticing, not hearing, not seeing for tolerating blatant anti-semitic comments. He's not a nice man. At all.

Actually, I think anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitic: it's denying the right of the Jewish people to self-determination. If you are denying this right to Jews as a people, but not other peoples, it begs the question of why. And that answer, by definition, will involve statements about Jews.

Criticism of the actions of the State of Israel is not anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist: unless that criticism treats Israel in a way that is different to the way you'd criticise another state. So you can legitimately criticise the occupation (whilst simultaneously wondering why no-one gives a shit about Western Sahara, perhaps) but not legitimately question the right of the state itself to exist. To do so, if you don't criticise other state's right to existence when criticising their foreign or domestic policies, would be anti-Semitic. (I can't do links on my phone, but look at the IHRA website for further details/explanation)

They are not anti Semitic it's what the right wing press want you to think.

So you’re saying that what the Jewish board of deputies said yesterday is part of a conspiracy? Isn’t that, y’know, kinda anti Semitic?

It’s hard to criticise Israel’s government without it being considered anti Zionist surely?

I am not anti-Zionist, and I cannot understand any British person who is today. That ship sailed as long ago as WW1 and the British shenanigans with the Sykes-Picot Agreement and the Balfour Declaration, then the subsequent British Mandate, WW2 and its aftermath. Israel exists.

But - along with a number of Israeli friends and academics - I'll criticise Israeli politics when it stinks, and affects people.

I also have friends in the Labour Party who don't even seem to understand the role that Britain played in the carving up of the Middle East post-WW1 and the fall of the Ottoman Empire, alongside French interests in Syria and Russian interests in Turkey.

It frustrates me.

The question of the Jewish people's right to nationhood was established by intellectuals after the Enlightenment; and by the international order after WW2. Thr situation in Gaza is appalling - but it's a gross over-simplification to say if not for Israel it would be better. Egypt has been the occupying power more than once. Neither time did they allow even self-government, never mind independence. The border with Egypt is almost permanently closed - you hear about the border with Israel all the time, but successive Egyptian governments have colluded in the "blockade" and also ban the same imports as Israel. There have been several attempts over the years to storm that border: it's always been put down in a hail of bullets and heavy protestor casualties. It makes the next news headline on occasion, but passes without most people noticing.

There's a lot more I could add, but the bottom line is that this is far more complicated and nuanced than most people and seemingly all journalists understand, and culpable are a much wider range of entities than the Jewish state and the Zionist lobby.

It’s the left wing hierarchy of minorities isn’t it? Muslims are right at the top so in conflict with Jews, their interests will always win.

Lakielady It would be a good thing if the new younger members of the LP read up about the 6 day war and the Yom Kippur war when Israel was attacked on all sides by Arab countries whose stated aim was to destroy the state of Israel and drive the Jews into the sea.

If they read some history, they might understand why Israel is reluctant to return to the pre-67 borders, which left them wide open to their aggressors. So long as they are under daily attack from Hamas rockets and Hezbollah is smuggling weapons into Lebanon and there are plans for Iran to build bases close to the Golan Heights defences, it would be suicidal for Israel to retreat.

The first definition of Zionism is the belief that Israel has the legal right to exist. And so long as Corbyn and his associates support anti-zionists and calls them his friends, I'm afraid that his anti-semitism will be called into question.

I think the dictionary definition of AS is denying the Jewish people a homeland.

Which dictionary is that, then?

@Thymeout agreed. They should also note that in June 1967, Israel essentially agreed to land for peace (ie to withdraw from all conquered territories from the Six Day War except part of the Golan and Jerusalem) - and all the Arab states involved rejected this.

Hefzi Yes. And it would be instructive to show them film of Hamas training child soldiers and to remember that Hamas virtually invented the idea of suicide bombers. I suppose they are too young to remember school buses being bombed and pizza parlours blown up by terrorists whose families were handsomely rewarded for their martyrdom.

Israeli walls were built for a reason.

They are not anti Semitic it's what the right wing press want you to think.

Mr Corbyn writes: “Their concerns are not smears.” He goes on: “We must strive to understand why anti-Semitism has surfaced in our party, which has always stood for equality for all, and opposed racism and discrimination.”

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-apologises-for-antisemitism-in-labour-and-admits-its-a-clear-problem-the-party-has-a3822031.html

Corbyn may be an overgrown student politican, but he isnt stupid. although he clearly thinks the rest of us are, his selective vision and hearing are obvious.

and he is the parry leader so what goes on in the party IS down to him.

Corbyn could make a start by condemning the actions of JVL - the pro-Corbyn group who staged a counter-demonstration against the official protest outside Parliament. Someone was talking last night about his elderly parents, in their 80s, Holocaust survivors, who had never before taken part in a demo in their whole lives. As they walked past the JVL protestors they had to run the gauntlet of jostling and heckling.

And when MPs, many of them non-Jewish, attended the demonstration, he could have spoken up about campaigns in their constituencies to threaten them with de-selection. Instead, he said it was a matter for the CLPs.

And what was so important that he had to leave the Parliamentary debate for a time so he missed the speeches of Luciana Berger and Ruth Smeeth - for which they received standing ovations?

He hates confrontation, gets others to do his dirty work, hides behind 'process'. But he's a master of passive aggression. His inactivity speaks volumes.

Thymeout I totally agree with your last sentence re Corbyn. He gets others to comment, half-heartedly ‘look into it’ (the most serious complaints were made over 2 years ago) and generally doesn’t take responsibility for their even being a problem. Within a week of the dire Windrush revelations he had spoken in person and with conviction about the situation. With anything to do with anti-semitism be says he’s against it and does bugger all. So what he hasn’t bothered to address over the last 2 and a half years, he is now going to sort out and stamp down on by this July? I somehow doubt it. I want to vote labour so much but Corbyns reluctance to get to grips with the anti Semitic element within the party, makes it impossible for me.

MOMENTUM

That's the problem in all of this. a group of left wing, educated middle class people who saw the Labour party in disarray and grabbed it.

they got Jeremy into power.
they have anti-Semitic views
they put trans women before women in their hierarchy.

they are the problem.

Jeremy wont call them out, not now and not ever, because they have their hands up his back working him from behind.

its absolutely woeful what this small group have done and ordinary Labour voters and members have let it happen, sleep walking into the situation they find themselves in now.

think its bad now? just wait until the next election when the "people who identify as women can be on the all women shortlists" kicks in.

and you see many good stalwart Labour politicians kicked out of safe seats because they don't toe the Momentum line.

I really hope that Labour get an absolute roasting at the next election and lose lots of seats because this is the only way that real labour supporters can wrestle the party back from Momentum.

Is what the right wing press want us to think?

This is why jewish people are protesting, complaining in the media, why actors coming out saying they are making me a tory what utter rubbish.

Badiel explained it today on this morning, just as its been explained on here, The jews in some of the lefts eyes are not poor or marginalized enough. Its deeply ingrained and part of some of the lefts thinking, corybyn, the man of peace - has un leashed many many horrors as his time of the party head.

^^ Yes Mummy its like Britain First taking control of Tory party, its so ingrained and from our poor education system to be scared of the far right not the far left so here we are.

Totally agree @hef!

Lots of people are saying AZ isnt AS but it is to me if you are wanting to deny the Jews a homeland. AZ isn't just about how it's aquire, but about it even existing.

I think it's astounding that so many 'normal' left wingers think Ruth smeeth and Luciana Berger are liars.

I really do find that shocking.