IVF failure and intuition?

[ohbigdaddio]

I found out a few days ago my 2nd embryo transfer has failed.

DH and I didn't feel we wanted children until I was 37 and I distinctly remember when DH and I were discussing it that I said "knowing my luck we'll decide to have kids and then we won't be able to, and I'll be really upset."

We began TTC. After 6 months or so I began to get the feeling I just wouldn't get pregnant and after 18 months of TTC I didn't once see a BFP.

We started tests and were diagnosed with unexplained infertility. IVF followed last September which resulted in a BFN. After this a horrible 6 month wait as I had to wait for an operation to remove a fibroid and then in February this year we began a medicated frozen cycle. Over 8 weeks of hope and determination later and again a BFN. I am devastated but had thoughts after the embryo transfer that this attempt probably won't work either. (I also had some happy thoughts about how amazing it would be if it worked so I'm not being entirely pessimistic but in general I wouldn't let myself think too positively.)

I'm not trying to be negative but I feel like I have a feeling that I'm just not going to ever get pregnant. I look at pregnant women and wonder why can't my body do that? I am 39 and we have 1 frozen embryo left. We are too swept up in our grief to decide what to do next but I am already thinking 'I bet this one won't work either.' It's just a feeling I get and I've had it all along. I'm not sure if I am being silly or if I have a deep intuition about my body.

Could I be right? Has anyone else felt like this but been proven wrong?

Please be gentle (and, please, no 'have you thought of adopting?' comments!) x

I know one woman who did a whopping 21 cycles (OE, DE) before moving to surrogacy, then had her daughter on cycle 24. She and the surro are trying for a sibling and are on cycle 29. Most people who go for that many cycles do so abroad where cycles are cheaper

When Prof Brosens said to me that most people do eventually get there with persistence he also said 'at what cost'. The fact is that it's a huge strain emotionally, physically and financially. Many many relationships don't survive infertility and recurrent miscarriage.

I nursed my dying mother and I can say hand on heart that going through infertility was more emotionally gruelling.

For us the decision was easier because it was made for us. We couldn't do any more transfers because after 7 cancelled FET cycles we just couldn't get my uterus to cooperate. Saying 'enough' for your mental health is very hard.

FWIW this is a post I wrote on another thread but I'll pop it here as it may strike a chord

Long post, posted on another forum, but thought you ladies might appreciate the substance:

^"I was at the gynae-oncology clinic for my follow up appointment yesterday (because obvs what I had needed earlier in the year was a gynaecological cancer scare) and actually the consultant didn't really talk at all about the cancer issue - as he said right off that (as we knew) all the tests were clear. He actually spent most of the appointment asking how we were doing emotionally, when we told him the update that we'd since finished treatment and now had to accept that we couldn't have children. This is an NHS gynaecology clinic, not a fertility clinic, but he went way way over our allotted time, just to basically give us a therapy session about how we were coping with it all.

He said that particularly in women's health, Drs could be slaves to protocol, and essentially moving from one intervention to the next and the next, when actually the protocol didn't take into account how the patient feels emotionally, and whether it's the right thing for them personally.

He said that we had been through an enormous amount both physically and emotionally, and that if we explored surrogacy as an option, we shouldn't let any professionals try to move us along a conveyor belt - that we had to decide what felt right for us as a couple. And that just because we had the embryos didn't mean that surrogacy was the next logical solution - that we should feel able to say that actually no, we don't feel that path is one we want to pursue, that saying no was as valid a choice as any, and that the only opinions that mattered were ours as a couple

DH and I both came out quite weepy tbh (and not just because the nurse said the magic words 'you are now discharged'). The fact that he took the time to speak to us as humans (when he didn't have to), and said that just because medical intervention was an option, didn't mean you necessarily should take that path, meant a huge amount

Because without that, you just feel guilty for saying 'no'. That saying 'enough' means you're a quitter and if you really wanted it enough you'd sacrifice everything to get there

Except that you can sacrifice everything you have and are, every shred of yourself and your identity and relationship, and still don't get there

Because sometimes you just have to be able to say 'enough'"^

Both he and professor Brosens at the Coventry clinic said how unhelpful and ridiculous the miracle stories are

Just because someone's brother's cousin's neighbour's hairdresser's sister in law's best friend's secretary had been TTC for 13 years and had 17 cycles and 14 miscarriages and she had blocked tubes and her partner had one bollock and a low sperm count and they stopped trying and went on the adoption list and went on holiday and relaxed and got drunk and omg now they have natural quadruplets is irrelevant.

If ever someone tells me that story I just say 'that's lovely for them, but that has no bearing on my situation'

Yes OP. We finally got our + after 12yrs TTC.

The only thing I changed was I switched to a ketogenic diet 6 months prior it seemed to totally reset my body.

Oh and just like all the 'bollocks' stories other long term ttcs seem to loathe, we had totally given up and I got pregnant the first time we had sex 'just for fun' in over 6yrs.

@ohbigdaddio I would look at IVF Predict (you can Google it). You can enter your age, diagnosis, number of previous IVF cycles and pregnancies (if any) and it will predict your chance of your next cycle succeeding.

The tool is based on a lot of data collated from IVF clinics, and gives an objective picture of whether you should give up or carry on. For example, if your likelihood of success was 50% in your first two cycles, and you didn't succeed, you could assume it was just bad luck and try again. If your next cycle has a predicted success rate of 10%, meanwhile, you may decide it's the right time to move on.

In general, however, most clinics see a single 'course' of IVF as three cycles because the probability of any cycle succeeding for the average woman at the average clinic is about 30%. Before three cycles, you can't really conclude that your chances of failure are worse or better than the average IVF patient.

People do have 8+ IVF cycles and succeed on the 9th attempt, but typically they're changing clinics and treatment regimes throughout. So they might start at their local hospital and end up at the private clinics that deal with 'hard cases'. They're also going to be doing a combination of fresh and frozen cycles in quick succession. They're not doing fresh cycle after cycle at the same clinic with the same treatment regime.

It's also quite unusual for someone to do 17 cycles, with no sign of success, and - the one case I know - she wrote a book about her experiences (because it was unusual). Most people have exhausted their possibilities by about six cycles - usually after changing clinics several times - and believe, justifiably, that their fertility is worse than the average IVF patient.

Hope that helps.

Also, it did basically destroy our marriage and my mental health too amongst other things. I would never change my son but the path to get there is not one I would ever tell or encourage anyone to go down just to get to the end.

It consumed and stole my entire reason for living for a decade. I lost my youth because of it. I wont ever get those years or that time to grow as myself and enjoy my life back.

I know someone who had 6 miscarriages in a row OP and now has 5 children! Don't give up if its what you want.

Please ignore this if its sounds like bullshit, but my friend above had sessions of acupuncture and reflexology after her 6th pregnancy, to help her get over the stress, she swears this helped her body recalibrate and pregnancy ready. I strongly recommend you doing something that helps support you mentally and physically to relax as much as possible. I wish you all the luck in the world!

Only you can decide whether to keep going or give up. Every couple copes in a different way. For some people, all the disappointment is very damaging on a relationship. It's important to do this as a couple. Some people are happier once they have come to terms with it

Intuition can be a freaky as fuck thing sometimes. I know the success stories grate and I apologise in advance if it does - but we didn't qualify or have the income for IVF and had the double whammy of finding it incredibly hard to conceive (no reason ever found for it - my innards checked out, DH's sperm were as "normal in the amount of crap ones as anyone else" - thanks doc!) and then also having a run of early miscarriages whenever we DID get lucky.

After 6 years I'd pretty much given up (must have been a good 3 years since we'd last conceived and miscarried) and had the oddest thought one afternoon while going around a traffic roundabout in the car - just a sudden "OK - one last shot this month and we ARE going to nail it"... and we did, and, under the hospital recurrent miscarriage consultant just for ongoing scans to try to figure out what was going wrong in that department, the pregnancy went to as near as full-term as my body seems to let me go (I subsequently got pregnant again very soon after the first was born with the second and went into premature labour again at exactly the same point - but I have two wonderful kids now).

I'm only sharing because you asked for other stories about intuition and "just knowing" and it was totally crazy - even more totally crazy for DH who I think had got greeted with an "OK pants off - we are going at it this month" demand as he walked through the door!

Hi, we were in the exact same position as you (unexplained, similar ages, multiple ivf) but with a much longer period of trying and not conceiving before ivf. It's very very normal to feel like it might never happen for you and for that feeling to get stronger the longer it goes on for. In some ways, I think it's actually quite a protective mechanism as if you were to feel the opposite, your hopes and excitement would be dashed every time. Probably the healthiest mind set to be in is sonewhere in the middle with a small amount of hope but the realism that it is incredibly hard for many people to conceive and to try to just sit with where things are right now rather than worrying about the next step or rehashing what has gone before (easier said than done I know).

However, there is no way that you can 'know' intuitively beforehand if you will conceive or not. It's just not possible to telepathically predict an outcome. It's just a feeling you have based on your experiences, which as I said is totally normal.

I don't know if you watch BBC breakfast but they were discussing infertility this morning. As the specialist said, they recommend three rounds of ivf for a reason as that enables 85% of people having ivf to conceive. Of course there are then 15% that won't and I don't know what percentage of these would never conceive even if they had 20 rounds. If I was in your position and I felt I could cope with it, then I'd try the full three rounds as I know that for us personally, we'd regret not giving ourselves that chance. Only you know either you can put yourselves through that. It might be worth considering the clinic you're using and their success rates as well (you don't say if you're private or nhs). Not all ivf clinics are equal in the results they get. Though we cannot all choose for financial reasons.

Also to say that there is zero evidence that things like diet and stress affects outcomes. The only stuff with good evidence is smoking and being sig overweight. Ideally not getting smashed is probably advisable but you can drink a bit and eat sugar and live a life still. In fact I think that's really important when you're going through such a tough process. So please don't beat yourself up about feeling like you have to live some virtuous lifestyle and why that doesn't seem to be helping. It doesn't work like that (within reason). Infertility just is sometimes and we don't know enough about why. Wish you all the best! X

Hi. We've been through IVF. Do you know what stage your embryos were at? On our first cycle the embryo was a 3 day transfer and I kind of felt right off that it wouldn't stick. And it didn't. Two remaining embryos made it to day 5. We then had a FET and one of our day 5s stuck and is now a crazy 3 year old. Day 5s have a higher chance of implanting as they have already developed further. It's worth asking the question. BWE used donor eggs - not due to infertility but die to my having a genetic condition that I didn't want to pass on. You may want to consider this as another option. But you know when enough is enough. And at the end of the day its better to have a marriage intact at the end. Best of luck with whatever route you choose. Neither are easy. x

Each cycle of IVF has a success rate of about 30%. I don't see how that translates as "85% of people who have three rounds of IVF will conceive". Reality seems to suggest otherwise.

SerenDippitty a cycle is not a round. A round of IVF could be 25 sucessfully fertilised eggs and say 12 attempts of implantation (2 attempted at each). Equally it could also only yield 1 or two successfully fertilised eggs, or none at all.

3 'rounds' of IVF could infact be years of treatment and attempts. So the success rate is actually quite accurate for 3 rounds. It's just that most trusts only over one or two and they're so rushed to treat so many women that it also affects the overall success rates too.

My mate is going through it right now after fighting for her right to treatment, and the Women's hospital just seem to be squeezing her in where they can with last minute and rushed appointments. Not that it's their fault, but it doesn't help the whole process really.

@SerenDippitty The success rate of each subsequent cycle isn't independent of the cycles before or their outcome - you can check this on IVF Predict.

@RubyBoots7 I agree totally that "It might be worth considering the clinic you're using and their success rates as well (you don't say if you're private or nhs). Not all ivf clinics are equal in the results they get. Though we cannot all choose for financial reasons."

The HFEA (Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority) have statistics on their website - it's under 'choose a clinic'. The statistics they use are slightly slanted because, for example, they're designed to penalise clinics who put two embryos back, but they give a good view of success rates for someone of your age.

You might also want to check the website Fertility Friends - they have regional discussion forums and also places where people can ask for clinic recommendations. A proportion of the regular posters have had many failed cycles , which means they're experts in treatment and can give good advice.

Some clinics work mostly with people who've experienced numerous failed cycles and still get good rates. They tend to be expensive per cycle, because of the one-to-one medical attention and because they include experimental 'add-ons' (again, the HFEA has a section about these so you can make up your mind), but it may be worth a try.

I was doing it 25 years ago and back then a fresh cycle was one round of ovarian stimulation, fertilisation and implantation. A frozen cycle was transferring frozen embryos if any. I had three fresh cycles, resulting in 4 embryos being implanted fresh and three being frozen (I was well rubbish at producing was even on top dose of drugs) and four attempts at FET three of which ended up abandoned prior to transfer for various reasons including the embryo not surviving the thawing. The last fresh cycle was after the FET attempts and yielded just three eggs and one embryo. How many rounds is that?

*producing eggs not producing was.

cutes they were day 5 embryos...will return to thread tomorrow, bit exhausted tonight.

Hey OP, sorry to hear you are going through this. I know your feelings exactly. We tried for 5 years before having our wee boy last year and the IVF pretty much consumed me both emotionally and physically. I do agree with the poster above though who mentions different clinics having different expertise and better results.

I met my husband when we were both 39 and we started trying pretty much immediately. I discovered though that my eggs were crap quality and I had a low reserve. We didn’t want to adopt - I felt/feel like if I needed to carry a baby myself. We decided to go straight to donor eggs. We tried two rounds of donor IVF in New Zealand - its very expensive here and we paid about $20,000 per cycle (which was the original egg pickup, drugs etc and about 3 transfers per cycle). I did get pregnant on the first cycle but miscarried after 9 weeks. After all the failures I was at rock bottom. We decided to have a look into a European clinic as we were travelling to see our families in Europe in 2016 - we found out about a clinic called Reprofit International in Brno, Czech Republic (about an hour from Prague). They had an excellent reputation and did waaaaaay more cycles a year than the two NZ clinics we had used. We told our NZ clinic we were putting a hold on our cycle with them and went with a donor cycle in Brno. They were so bloody efficient and nice it was amazing! They were very matter of fact and talked to us in such realistic terms, we were very impressed. We had an embryo transferred in September 2016 and I found out I was pregnant 2 weeks later. Boom, first go in Brno after all those failed attempts in NZ. The only regret we have is that we wasted all that time and spent all that money in NZ. Brno was half the price and actually worked! I have to confess I spent all my pregnancy very anxious that something awful would happen, but our wonderful little boy was born in May 2017. They are also pretty hot on IVF with own eggs so I have heard. I am happy for you to message me if you want details (or you can google Reprofit International). We are considering going back next year to try for another. Good luck with whatever you decide :-)

I'm really sorry OP.

I am not a fertility expert at all but in the past couple of years ended up at a meeting that concluded with a group discussion with some of the worlds leading embryologists and fertility experts. It was really interesting and what I took from it was:

1. IVF - Anything over 30% success rate is very good

2 Massive data analysis has shown that if a couple with unexplained infertility have unprotected sex for 2yrs and the same type of coupe have 2 yrs of IVF, the same number of pregnancies occur.

I don't have references - it was a panel discussion and was the end of a confidential meeting of clinicians.

But it sure made me think about all my friends with unexplained infertility and the tens of thousands they have spent to no avail.

They were only discussing unexplained infertility and concluded that IVF should not be offered to these couples. I doubt anyone will ever read a paper to that effect. There is too much cash to be made.

Hi all, just needed a bit of a break but thanks for all your thoughts.

I do believe though that intuition in these cases is often not intuition but our own deep fears and we need not listen to it and if we do it will make no difference. Thanks BarbarianMum, similar to what mirriVan said but very useful.

I know one woman who did a whopping 21 cycles (OE, DE) before moving to surrogacy, then had her daughter on cycle 24 I’m confused as to what constitutes a cycle, 24 cycles is immense bananafish81 As far as I was aware a cycle is taking the stimulant drugs, having eggs collected and fertilised and then whatever embryos are created and are implanted? So if you have 3 embryos from 1 round, use the 1st one and it fails, the other 2 are still classed as part of cycle 1? I dread to think the years involved or the heartache and mental health issues (plus bank balance) after 24 cycles.

We have asked our consultant who thinks it should take 3-4 attempts to get pregnant. I asked if she meant cycles or embryo transfers and she said 3-4 transfers. But there is no guarantee and I still have a feeling of doom/pessimism. I'm also not sure how she can be sure of this and am taking it more as 'if it's going to happen it will happen within this time' rather than it will definitely happen.

When Prof Brosens said to me that most people do eventually get there with persistence he also said 'at what cost'. The fact is that it's a huge strain emotionally, physically and financially. Many many relationships don't survive infertility and recurrent miscarriage. Thanks for this too bananafish81 At the moment our relationship is ok but DH and I are very unhappy in ourselves. I can’t imagine still doing this in even a years time. I feel like we are wasting our lives, wishing time away and just so sad most of the time, longing to be parents. It feels like the world is going on without us. Your doctor sounds very nice and this has really stood out as a sensible and compassionate thing to say just because medical intervention was an option, didn't mean you necessarily should take that path

To anyone who says we might have success naturally after however many IVF cycles…I just can’t imagine the torture of years of failed IVF, only to then still be hoping to conceive naturally and still focussing on it. Surely at this point you would have to say there is more to life than this? I hope I would anyway.

I'm a bit different in that I knew IVF would never work and so never went through the torture of having it. However, even though I knew, logically that it would be a waste of time/money I went through a period of about 3 months when my then husband and I seriously considered just doing it anyway. I also still obsessively took my temperature and did various ovulation tests and made sure we had sex when I calculated that j was ovulating just in case we became one of those miracle couples. At one point I told my husband to find someone to have an affair with and get her pregnant so we could bring up a child that was his. I wasn't rational.

Even now, at the age of 44 and with a new partner I find myself wondering if we are going to be one of those miracle couples who have the unexpected child late.

Mostly though, I've come to terms with the fact that nothing would have ever worked and I'm never going to have a child. There are a lot of us out there, even though we don't advertise it. Some of us even pretend that we never wanted a baby in the first place and put our refusal to cuddle your newborn down to incompetence, indifference or downright dislike of children. It's easier to be the one new parents avoid and mistrust. It's easier for pregnant friends to think that you are avoiding them because your lives are now too different and you have nothing in common. It's easier to pretend you don't like children and prefer your house to be the sleek, uncluttered one. To be the one dedicated to their career and the childfree hedonistic lifestyle (that I never led anyway as I had dogs).

However, in time you do find peace with your fate. I'm much further down the road than you, Bananafish81 and you OP; and it is true that you find a sort of peace with your life, the life you have and not the life you should be leading. Sometimes you need to be selfish and jf that means you can't cope with pregnant and new mum friends then you tell them and avoid them until you can deal with them. If you lose that friendship because of it, then it wasn't a good friendship for you anyway. As you get older your social group tends to consist of parents of older/adult children and those who never had children for whatever reason. It is only a short period of time, as a woman, when everyone is going through the pregnancy, baby, young children phase. It just feels like forever when you're the one outside oooking in.

There is a life out there without children that is still valuable and rich. It doesn't have to consist of travelling, concentrating on career and all the stereotypes that we childfree/less people are supposed to lead. It can just be having a good relationship, hanging out with friends, loving other people's children and dogs/cats whatever. My life is happy without children. It's now a healed scar, still there, still occasionally painful, never forgotten but mostly ok.

I hope you find peace OP, whatever you decide and Bananafish81 - I've followed your story and I know that you will be ok. You are so strong, you have so much to offer the world.

auditqueen thank you for sharing such an eloquent, personal and honest viewpoint. I'm glad you've found your peace with not having children. Thanks so much for sharing xx

Yes, thank you @auditqueen. I’m sort of at your stage and know exactly what you mean about the scar. It aches sometimes, itches sometimes, but will always be there.

I think you are just trying to protect yourself from getting your hopes up which is totally understandable . Ivf is one of the hardest things I have ever had to do mentally and physically. We had a failed cycle before being lucky enough to conceive on the second try. 9 years later we have just used our one and only frozen embryo fully expecting it not to work. We were absolutely Convinced it wouldn't!. Well It did!! I wish you all the luck in the world and just wanted to say be kind to yourself really.. and that when you have a down day when your feeling negative it's totally normal and won't affect your outcome . Good luck.

I think it's normal to worry in these situations - it's easier to imagine the negative and there is an element of protecting yourself from getting your hopes up. The important thing to remember is that just because you have a feeling about it doesn't make that feeling right! Conception is still possible for you.