the eu-usa culture difference surrounding money and enjoyment is being overlooked

[cocacolamonster]

I was going around Reddit and it occurred to me that too many people are generalising/overlooking some of the strong culture differences that exist between US philosophy and non-US philosophy.

In Europe, we often go to great lengths to limit work hours even if that reduces productivity and looks statistically bad (reducing GDP) and much of society is based around enjoyment of life without money.

You raise children not to prepare them for a job, but rather either for enjoyment of life or to do some sort of moral good (become a doctor or politician).

A lot of Americans are still quite materialistic from a European perspective - universities are about making money there, a job's salary is most paramount, etc...

I'm Indian (or Sri Lankan) too. They don't have such a strong materialistic culture there as well. It is widely common for people to not peruse money in order to work towards a moral or cultural good - which many economists blame for the worse economic growth among Indians vis-a-vis more materialistic cultures such as China where money creation is views as a major aspect of success. Indian philosophies historically found that chasing money wouldn't lead to a better quality of life.

I'm not quite sure how most British people feel about paper chasing now considering the prevalence of US culture in the English speaking world.

Also, remember that they don’t do end of school exams. They have grade point averages dictated by individual teachers and then can take SATS for university entry.

Everyone who doesn’t take these just gets their GED, which is just a ‘I went to High School’ diploma.

No. The SATs are unrelated to the high school diploma. And the GED is primarily for people who did not finish high school and then decide later to get the certificate, which is broadly considered to be generally equivalent to a high-school diploma. The E stand for "equivalency."

Also, purely anecdotal, but on the subject of universities wanting money, I get just as many solicitations for donations from my
UK university as from my US one.

I find that Americans tend to be more obsessed/focused on the idea that life is a capitalist world where everyone needs to fight for themselves in order for them to survive, whereas Europeans tend to be more community orientated and focused on helping each other more.

I’m sorry OP but my real life experience living in the US says this is utter nonsense.

I live in Houston. Both during and in the aftermath of hurricane Harvey last year Houstonians and Texans from right across the state demonstrated incredible community spirit (even risking their own safety to help others).

People drove through the night and terrible weather to bring boats to help rescue people and animals.

People opened their homes to those in need.

People devoted hours and hours and hours of time helping complete strangers whose homes were flooded ripping out damaged Sheetrock, cleaning homes and furniture, removing debris, cooking
Meals, washing clothes, donating money, clothes, household goods food and time.

Lawyers devoted substantial amounts of free time to helping people with insurance claims.

Food banks and churches and schools andcharities were inundated with volunteers and donations as everyone worked together to help put the city back together.

You understand that there were terrible floods just the year before and the community worked together to help then too. It’s not a one off.

I’m so offended on behalf in my adopted city that you would malign them this way.

You are confusing politics with culture.

I don't think there is evidence that lower working hours = less productivity though. If anything the opposite, as people do better work and are less likely to burn out. I've gathered that in the US there is more of a sense that your employer 'owns you' and expects you to be dedicated to it, but that doesn't make outcomes better for business of itself.

There is definitely community spirit in the USA ! I’ve seen so many community drives, fundraisers etc etc.

Productivity tails off after a certain point I think. It’ll depend on industry as well. Something where it's x widgets per hour into a box is going to result in more widgets boxes if you increase working hours. But anything that’s more complex I think you have diminishing returns. I certainly don’t find our US office any more or less productive than the EU/EE ones.

I 100% agree with Copperbonnet experiences

Also, purely anecdotal, but on the subject of universities wanting money, I get just as many solicitations for donations from my
UK university as from my US one.

I think there’s definitely more of a culture of donating in the USA than here - endowments and alumni/a donations seem to be something that more people do. Hence the really good bursaries and scholarships available.

There is a strong streak of philanthropy in certain sections of usa society.

@cocacolamonster I get that but I was trying to pick up more on the philanthropic aspect where American clients tended to be very much more generous than other nationalities and very low key about it whereas European clients were quite a lot less charitable as well as low key in other areas, and that was regardless of the social origins.

I 100% agree with Copperbonnet experiences

Me too. And many of the statements on here about high school/SATs/education are simply incorrect.

The greater level of charity in US is partly driven by the fact that the US has much less of a social safety net than Europe generally. The tax breaks are better too, I believe.

How do single parents or families where both parents work manage around caring for their children? Do the higher wages allow everyone to have nannies or is nursery/childminder available longer hours?

I work around 9-4.30 but out of house 745am - 530) - there's only an extra 45 mins I would have available each day within childcare times. I find i have very little time with my son midweek as he's in bed for 730am. Can't imagine regularly having even less time with him, even if it was for a much higher salary.

The greater level of charity in US is partly driven by the fact that the US has much less of a social safety net than Europe generally.

There is always an interesting interplay in the national dialogue on this aspect. I would like to see a greater safety net, but at the same time, I recognize that my relatively lower tax rate gives me choices about the charities and social issues I might choose to support.

On the childcare question, in my community, aftercare at the local elementary schools is available until 6 pm. There is a charge, but it is very affordable. Private nursery is more expensive, but fairly affordable for a two-income family.

Also, I don't know anyone who puts their children to bed at 7:30.

The USA is more aligned with Capitalism than probably any other country, even though it’s flawed I assume many Americans probably still see it as preferable over the (also flawed) alternatives.

people use daycares or more affordable childminders. Quite often people will swop off shifts or use family - very like Ireland and probably the UK. Back in the day we used a daycare which was expensive but we loved it. There were several families there on childcare vouchers provided by the state.

For us one did the early start and the other the later finish. So one went to work and the other did the drop off (sometimes we both did) around 8. Then the other picked up around 5 while the other worked on a bit. We ate dinner together every evening. Still do even though they are teens.

When they went to school we did a mixture of someone picking up for us/after school club/me contracting my work hours. Camps during the summer - swimming, sports, arts, etc.

My children never went to bed at 7.30.

I agree about the greater level of charity - people feel a more personal sense of responsibility to those in need because of the apparent lack of social safety net. Reading some of the threads about benefits and poverty on MN though, I wonder how strong the safety net in the UK really is.

I've never lived in the US but I've basically lived everywhere else around the world. I find that Americans tend to be more obsessed/focused on the idea that life is a capitalist world where everyone needs to fight for themselves in order for them to survive, whereas Europeans tend to be more community orientated and focused on helping each other more.

Which American communities are you basing this on, bearing in mind you haven't actually lived in them?

European universities don't tend to be hubs for money - you don't find the elite congregating at one university because they have the money to be there alone - but they tend to do better at talent.

They absolutely are. In many ways they are bigger hubs for elite talent than the US. Name me a subject and I'll give you it's European hub. Cambridge and Oxford (for example) are two of the wealthiest universities in the world. They make money that US uni's could only dream about.

"Also, remember that they don’t do end of school exams. They have grade point averages dictated by individual teachers and then can take SATS for university entry.

Everyone who doesn’t take these just gets their GED, which is just a ‘I went to High School’ diploma."

You are wrong.

The SAT has nothing to do with high school graduation. There are a few universities which don't even require SAT scores.

The GED is not an "I went to high school" diploma: it is a high school equivalency diploma for people who do not complete four years of high school, but who fulfill the academic requirements in non-traditional ways (GED prep centers, online courses, etc), and then pass the GED exams (which are equivalent to high school course final exams). People who get the GED typically have dropped out of high school (so did not complete it), and then took GED classes later in life. I also knew a few girls who had babies in their teen years, so did the GED instead of completing the traditional high school path.

Most American students who attend the more selective universities DO take end of year exams. AP courses in America are externally assessed by an end-of-year exam; students take AP courses during junior and senior years. Most students who wish to attend selective universities take multiple APs. The IB program is also growing in the US, and students who take the IB Diploma (rather than AP courses) sit an externally assessed end of school exam.

I'm American and taught high school in the US for several years.

You look in history & film, the US is the land of opportunity but that is based on freedom of movement, no visa, green card or citizenship tests. Things are a bit different now.

@Xenia Are you sure that they are Indian? The "flash cars" thing sounds very chavvy to me. The weddings are just a massive aspect of Indian culture - as is gold jewellery - it's not a Chanel bag and is derived from religion. Indian materialism is heavily based on honour within your greater family, in that you want to prove to your FAMILY that you got into athe best university or the best job - being a butcher making millions doesn't cut it.

Nonsense. How many indian families are proud as hell of their son/daughter/mother/father/uncle etc working as a Dubai cab driver cause he's earning more money than the village doctor? In India it's about being able to support your extended family.

I think it's hard to generalise about all of India (where my grandmother worked by the way in the 1920s). Also immigrants to any country can often be different from those who stay behind - they tend to move abroad to have a bette rlife, more money etc where those who stay behind may be perfectly content with what they have.

I suspect the essential Chinese principles of Confucius and traditional Hindu (and indee Christian) values are pretty similar - that you tend not to be too happy in life if all you are interested in is things.

Interesting topic OP.
I find that Americans tend to be more obsessed/focused on the idea that life is a capitalist world where everyone needs to fight for themselves in order for them to survive, whereas Europeans tend to be more community orientated and focused on helping each other more

I agree with copperbonnet entirely. We lived in TX for nearly 8 yrs and the community spirit was huge. Most of the people we met were members of huge (and I mean HUGE!) christian churches who had a big community and charity ethos - as did the schools. Similarly the arts were hugely supported by big charitable donations. If anything I think the more affluent members of society would reflect their status and wealth by supporting the arts eg. sponsoring a museum exhibition or members of an orchestra. They seemed to accept it being a major part of their responsibility - 'giving back'.
With regards to work ethos - I hated the ridiculously early starts that seemed to be expected eg. being in the office for 6am. Yes, it helped to beat the traffic, but it all seemed so unnecessary.

TheHulksPurplePants you write: "
Cambridge and Oxford (for example) are two of the wealthiest universities in the world. They make money that US uni's could only dream about."

Cambridge has an endowment of 6.25 billion. Harvard has an endowment of 37 billion.

What was your point?

I am annoyed by the amount of misinformation on here about US Universities. I don't understand why people insist on stating things as facts which are clearly wrong. I have posted about various things earlier too.

I'm not usually one to defend my birth country, but seriously, May Day is coming up. The holiday largely commemorates the Haymarket affair, where Americans - shocker - protested to reduce work hours and for greater labour rights. There is a large US tradition fighting for better work conditions and for enjoyment over labour. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and all that. I'm not sure how one can look at the breadth of US cultures and see money as the focus anymore than it is in the UK or most of the world.

I also don't think it's suitable to say there is an EU culture or even a US culture. My Midwest/Bible Belt upbringing is nothing like a West Coast for example. It's a common Midwest joke that Coasters have no clue about us like we're two different species. Yeah, I know Americans who are money obsessed - my own father loved to say how money makes the world go around - but I know just as many who weren't. Many who are very generous and community oriented and just life enjoyment oriented. A lot of US traditional music and such is about enjoying life. I really don't think it's fair to say groups like Appalachian communities, some don't even have basic utilities, are money focused. Most people are just trying to get on with life anywhere in the world, US included.

I imagine many possibly more Americans are stressed about money due to healthcare and education systems there but I don't think that means Americans are money focused. It's rough for most and I think the comparison is incredibly unhelpful in understanding US and EU differences. Most issues with the US stem from ideologies from the European colonial past, Protestant work ethic and all that.

Beyond the US having brain drain issues in the news for decades, if you think the UK's immigration issues don't have a racial tint to them, then I don't know what media you're consuming. I live in one the last strongholds for UKIP. I've had people literally check my nationality before determining if I'm "one of the good immigrants". There are tons of hoops for people jump through to immigrate to the UK, including income checks. Mine certain was 14 years ago and that was before the biometric requirements and all that.

NannyOgg There is highly variable results at UK schools as well. The secondary school local to me - less than 1/3rd get basic English and maths standards. The best school in the city is 99%. That's not a US thing.

Also, individual teachers don't give grade point averages, they each give a grade and then all of those are averaged. Most of those grades are reliant on exams every semester from 9th to 12th grade. Many states also require further proficiency exams and/or community service and/or research papers to get a full high school diploma. Mine required all of that. Also, along with GED, which is exam based and not just something you get for not graduating, some areas have kinda semi-high school diplomas programs which are only good to go to local employers and community college as kinda help to prevent those at risk of dropping out. My sister got one of those while my brother got a GED a few years after he had been expelled.

I've been to both US and UK universities and I would say by far the UK one was more job focused. Both the UK staff who sent a lot of emails about various workshops or whatever for job preparations and pretty much everything was spun in how it would look good on the CV. It felt like nothing was to be done just because or to be a better person which was something I'd been encouraged to do in the US. I went back to my UK uni last month for a conference and now they have massive banners in the main atrium about work experience and their stats for jobs after uni. None of the unis I went to or visited in the US have had anything like that, even for student tour days. US universities are more liberal arts and require many subjects to taken regardless of major while most UK ones are more subject focused. Much like the UK, the prestige and quality of US schools is highly variable, possibly more than the UK due to how many private religious universities that the US has some of which are very good and others which are not. I don't think there is anything in the UK system that makes the education UK kids get any less variable than the US.

*I 100% agree with Copperbonnet experiences!

Me three or four

After school childcare was relatively affordable ($650 a month for a full time place from 2pm to 6pm five days a week, plus it was tax deductible)

Also, probably not a universal experience particularly for those working multiple part time low paid jobs, we saw far more parents engaged in extra curricular activities: leaving work early to coach the baseball team, getting into work late after hosting the PTA meeting... Everyone was doing something to give back to their community in some way

As well as mahoosive charitable donations - far more than we had ever considered giving out of our take home salary TBH

claraschu, TheHulksPurplePants, Agree.

I don't know where this idea of free time comes from though. I'm a teacher and I work many hours extra unpaid every evening and weekend for not a great wage. If I were in the USA I would earn a good chunk more and often private healthcare is built into your work benefits.