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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if they can really fire my mum for this?

115 replies

GilligansKitchenIsland · 22/04/2018 22:21

My mum has worked for the last 30+ years for a religious (Christian) non-profit organisation. She's not paid by the organisation for her work; she raises her own funds by talking about her work at churches, and people who are on board with it can pledge to give her a monthly donation. The donations are made out to the organisation but specified for her. The organisation takes a 10% cut to cover their admin costs, and then deposits the remainder into her bank account. On paper, and for tax purposes, she's considered self-employed (on the advice of HMRC). But for all other intents and purpises she's a de facto (?) employee of this organisation - she works in their office, has a boss within the organisation who assigns her duties and signs off her annual leave, is bound by their policies, etc.

Recently, the organisation employed a new director who has been making some changes, one of which is to "clean up" some of the staffing. My mum has been variously told that her role is being restructured and there will no longer be a position for her, that they're upgrading to new software and they don't anticipate that she'll be able to adapt, and after that, that she "looks too miserable" and will probably have to go. She hasn't been given a timeframe for when she will be asked to leave, but they've made it clear she will be.

Because she's not officially employed by them, she's (presumably) not protected by employment law. She's also not part of any trade union. There is an HR department in the organisation - but they're the ones asking her to leave, so she can't appeal to them for help.

I realise her situation vis her employee status is very unusual but does anyone have any insight into her rights here? Can they really ask her to leave after so many years service with no good reason? She's dedicated her career to this organisation at significant personal cost, and is pretty devastated that they would screw her over right at the end of her career.

(Sorry for the long post and for (mis)using the AIBU topic for traffic!)

OP posts:
PersianCatLady · 23/04/2018 10:22

I understand how it has been explained but I wonder if the organisation clearly explain how it works to donors??

MargaretCavendish · 23/04/2018 10:31

I assume that if they ask your DM to leave they will then lose the funding of all her donors, as the donations are specified for her?

This is an interesting point. Are the donations labelled 'for Ms Gilligansmum' or, eg., 'for Nigerian campaign', ie do they consider themselves to be giving to your mum as an individual or they are paying for someone to do the work for the campaign that she works on?

PuppyMonkey · 23/04/2018 10:39

Very strange set up all round. Perhaps they're reorganising it all precisely because of how dodgy it looks on paper.

steppemum · 23/04/2018 10:56

Can I point out this from the OP:

On paper, and for tax purposes, she's considered self-employed (on the advice of HMRC).

I know people in similar position, and the organisation has had long talks with HMRC, and the HMRC recommended they are considered to be self employed.

jay55 · 23/04/2018 11:19

Sounds very much like the way overseas missionaries were funded (maybe still are I’ve no idea).
My grandmas church used to have 2 collections one for the church and one for missionaries, always specific people, their pictures on the collection baskets.

Really wish your mum well and hope you get some good help.

AnathemaPulsifer · 23/04/2018 12:46

Yes, I found the guidance: www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/business-income-manual/bim62101

I think internal appeals for Christian charity may be the right angle on this one. Presumably your mother loves her work or she wouldn't continue at her age and for so little money.

3l3ctricmeter · 23/04/2018 12:55

I would suggest that if this organisation no longer requires your DM services that they should be putting this in writing with reason why, her last working date and if she is entitled to any holiday pay or any pay due to loss of employment. I believe that there is no retirement age now if you are working, but a company can say that they no longer need you. I would look on the HMRC website. Your DM can also check her state pension entitlement on HMRC website using her National Insurance number. If your DM wishes to continue work and she has received the official letter from the company, then she could seek legal advice.

Mia1415 · 23/04/2018 13:01

I'd suggest that she gets proper legal advice.

If she is deemed as an employee or worker then she has legal protection and probably a good case for unfair dismissal and age discrimination.

The key question to determine whether someone is a worker or employee is if they are under the control of the 'employer'. The fact she has only worked for them for so long, has a boss, they approve her holiday etc are all helpful indicators.

ACAS may help, but this will be more complex than the sort of things they usually deal with I imagine.

Oliversmumsarmy · 23/04/2018 15:20

When your DM is away doing her work who pays for her travel insurance.

Could it be she isn't covered once she turns 70 or if the organisation cover it will the premiums go up hugely.

I think from what the OP has written the living expenses are to cover living expenses, flights, etc when she is working.

From what I can tell DM takes no personal income.

KeneftYakimoski · 23/04/2018 18:08

When your DM is away doing her work who pays for her travel insurance.

I suspect the answer to that is "travel insurance? What travel insurance?"

notapizzaeater · 23/04/2018 18:52

She really needs to,see a lawyer and check her status. If she is an employee they should owe her money up to min wage, plus hols, plus NI,,plus pension (auto enrolment)

Gwenhwyfar · 23/04/2018 22:07

"I suppose there's an argument that she is a volunteer who gets expenses paid"

Maybe, but she seems to have a semi-permanent office, fixed hours and have to ask permission to have annual leave. More like a fake self-employed worker in my completely non-expert opinion.

Itscolderoutside · 24/04/2018 06:37

Sorry, have not read very page of thread as Internet connection very slow? But does your DM have any legal cover on household insurance or with bank account?

GilligansKitchenIsland · 24/04/2018 09:21

Thanks again for all your responses. Sorry I had a busy day yesterday and didn't get a chance to respond.
I have a day off today so will spend it looking through the resources you've all suggested and contacting ACAS, and seeing what our options might be in terms of affordable legal advice going forward.
I don't know if DM would even be open to legal action, for reasons that PPs have alluded to on the thread, but I'm seeing her this weekend so will be prepared with a couple of options for her.

OP posts:
Oliversmumsarmy · 24/04/2018 09:26

From the donations she gets how much does she get to keep and how much is spent doing her work.

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