To ask if they can really fire my mum for this?

[GilligansKitchenIsland]

My mum has worked for the last 30+ years for a religious (Christian) non-profit organisation. She's not paid by the organisation for her work; she raises her own funds by talking about her work at churches, and people who are on board with it can pledge to give her a monthly donation. The donations are made out to the organisation but specified for her. The organisation takes a 10% cut to cover their admin costs, and then deposits the remainder into her bank account. On paper, and for tax purposes, she's considered self-employed (on the advice of HMRC). But for all other intents and purpises she's a de facto (?) employee of this organisation - she works in their office, has a boss within the organisation who assigns her duties and signs off her annual leave, is bound by their policies, etc.

Recently, the organisation employed a new director who has been making some changes, one of which is to "clean up" some of the staffing. My mum has been variously told that her role is being restructured and there will no longer be a position for her, that they're upgrading to new software and they don't anticipate that she'll be able to adapt, and after that, that she "looks too miserable" and will probably have to go. She hasn't been given a timeframe for when she will be asked to leave, but they've made it clear she will be.

Because she's not officially employed by them, she's (presumably) not protected by employment law. She's also not part of any trade union. There is an HR department in the organisation - but they're the ones asking her to leave, so she can't appeal to them for help.

I realise her situation vis her employee status is very unusual but does anyone have any insight into her rights here? Can they really ask her to leave after so many years service with no good reason? She's dedicated her career to this organisation at significant personal cost, and is pretty devastated that they would screw her over right at the end of her career.

(Sorry for the long post and for (mis)using the AIBU topic for traffic!)

If she's been paying tax then I wouldn't be so sure of this

It would depend on how she is paying tax. Clearly not PAYE, as otherwise the issue of whether she is an employee would be rather open and shut. If she's just filling in a tax return and paying income tax on her declared income, and making Class 4 (or, perhaps and more worryingly, in the past Class 2) NI contributions then the state doesn't really care where the money is coming from. It's the same tax declaration that a cash-in-hand window cleaner should be making.

I'd also be interested to know quite how the money going to her is treated by those giving it. If the money goes via the sponsoring organisation, then it's more likely she's an employee. If the money goes straight from the hand of the donor to the bank account of the OP's mother, then I wonder if higher-rate tax paying donors are putting it on their tax return as gift aid; the charity (if it actually is a charity) would be passing up the opportunity to get gift aid on it, of course.

Hope your mum gets some good advice on this....
To all those that say this sounds dodgy etc.... I suspect your mum is some sort of pastor or evangelist.... in which case tjis sounds perfectly normal set up in many church organisations.. .

The whole set up sounds dodgy from all angles and I’m not surprised they want to ‘clean up’. Hope she gets some help to deal with it.

I agree, it all sounds dodgey as hell!

Keneft - I'm self-employed and complete a tax return every year. Although my hourly rate is high I work very few hours a week, so often don't hit the threshold for Class 4 or income tax. If the OP's mother is getting "significantly below minimum wage", and then deducting expenses from the money she earns, then it's entirely possible that she WAS paying the basic NI and no more, but now as a person over the state retirement age, she's not even liable for that.

It's a hugely complex situation - part of what the OP says about having a boss and not being free in taking leave when she wants to makes it sound very much like the employer/ee relationship. But other parts are very different to conventional employment.

There are two issues. Firstly the sacking issue, which is probably best dealt with by ACAS, or a specialist employment lawyer.

As for the whole mess around tax and wages, that's an HMRC issue. They're the ones who determine whether the working set-up is legal or not. And going to them to complain could net the OP's mother a huge amount of money in back pay and everything else, but would also open a massive can of worms and potentially put an end to the work she obviously feels is so valuable.

Your mum needs robust legal advice from a qualified solicitor (not CAB or google) because this is a complex area. She can then decide what to do if she has a case. The company probably won't want negative publicity so a decent settlement may be forthcoming.

I never said it was a scam I was just trying to get my head round the information as it was given.
90% to DM and 10% on admin and other fundraisers.

OTOH DM is not free to take holidays as she pleases and has a boss. So would be considered an employee

OTOH she pays for her trips out of funds she has raised herself. A bit like students who want to go and build cabins up Everest for local people are volunteers not employees of the company putting it all together.
Then you have the issue of the donors. Are they writing cheques out to DM or the charity.

Add in to that what happens when after a trip dm is left with money over. She arrives back home with £10 left out of the money she has raised. Does she pocket it or does she hand it back to the organisation. What happens if she is £10 over spent does the charity give her £10 more?

But why do they want to sack her if she is covering her own costs plus contributing towards the organisation? There must be a problem otherwise they'd keep her on as long as she makes money for them. She's effectively a volunteer in that sense

Your mum needs robust legal advice from a qualified solicitor (not CAB or google) because this is a complex area. She can then decide what to do if she has a case. The company probably won't want negative publicity so a decent settlement may be forthcoming.

This ^

None of us are employment lawyers.
It all sounds very dodgy but I hope your mum can get a fair settlement. Sounds like she's been taken advantage of.

I'd also be interested to know quite how the money going to her is treated by those giving it. If the money goes via the sponsoring organisation, then it's more likely she's an employee.

OP said in her OP that people who are on board with it can pledge to give her a monthly donation. The donations are made out to the organisation but specified for her. The organisation takes a 10% cut to cover their admin costs, and then deposits the remainder into her bank account. so it looks like all the money does go through the charity first.

But specified for DM.

OP so sorry to hear your mum's situation
Just can't get my head around just how many pamphlets need translating over thirty years by so many people.

It sounds like a 'ministry' rather than a career, OP. Not that it makes it any easier.

Effectively, like the monks in China who rely on donations for their living but are still under the umbrella of their order.

An interesting point would be if DM raised the funds then sent others in her place giving them all the funds she had raised less say £100. Then whilst that person had gone she raised more to send more people and took a commission. Similar to what the organisation is doing

She "looks a bit miserable"?! Whet is that supposed to mean? I can only assume that there is both sexism and ageism at play here.

How incredibly un-Christian of them.

This sounds outrageous OP. As PP have said we are not employment lawyers but I do know that if a self employed person works for one organisation, who has expectations of that person on a regular basis then that person is classed as a 'worker', with attendant rights.
This means more rights than a self employed 'contractor' would have but less than an 'employee'.

so it looks like all the money does go through the charity first.

Then it's interesting to see how they argue she isn't an employee: it looks like the sort of actually-not-arms-length permalancing that the IR cracked down on in the IT industry and the building trade in the noughties with the changes to IR35 regulations.

The way by which the Church of England weasled out of being the "employer" of vicars is unlikely to be arguable more widely. I would hope.

I'd also be interested to know quite how the money going to her is treated by those giving it. If the money goes via the sponsoring organisation, then it's more likely she's an employee.

I think this is the core of it. You said the money goes to the organisation and is marked as being for your mother. She has to ask for holiday. Your link on missionary funding doesn't cover people working in an office with a boss and holiday entitlement. I'm self employed with a single client - I just tell my boss/client when I won't be working. You could probably make a case that she should have been considered an employee all this time.

What's to be gained, though? They don't want her any more. She's 69 and it sounds like they've been paying her so little that drawing her pension won't be a big step down. Unless she's already been drawing it to make ends meet? If so, if she's been living on a pittance and not saving for her retirement because there was a reasonable expectation that she could work forever, could she appeal to the board or trustees of the organisation?

Probably better to start by making a case to the new director though about how she can learn the new software and is very keen to continue. Perhaps he thinks he's doing her a favour by releasing her from her commitment...

Does the mission begin with W OP. If so my parents worked for them for 20+ years. I understand the set up and your Mum’s dedication to a cause she believes in. I am disappointed that your Mother has been treated this way.

I hope things can be resolved for her.

I think she needs some very senior employment laywer advice - there are many technical issues here - I do not think she meets the standard for self employed from my limited knowledge - she can't pick and choose when she works or holiday and that is one of the key arbitors. Even Volunteers for charities are often considered workers and have rights to H&S and so on. I think the organisation is on very thin ground and if she does go would likely settle out of court (tribunal) because of the larger overall considerations in that this is a status they frequently use and if they became liable they would be out of business having to pay off cases that everyone would bring

Oh and the comment that she looks a bit miserable? Bollocks to that. She has just been told that her work is not valued (in a pa way). What is she expected to do? Smile and make out all is well?

Oh and the comment that she looks a bit miserable? Bollocks to that. She has just been told that her work is not valued

The balls of it! "We're going to make you feel very insecure and undervalued, then you'll look unhappy so we'll fire you".

I assume that if they ask your DM to leave they will then lose the funding of all her donors, as the donations are specified for her? Will DM have the opportunity to personally thank all her donors and ask whether they would be willing to continue to support the good work of the organisation, or will the organisation itself undertake to write to her donors to give them the option to continue to donate but 100% of the money will go to the organisation?

That would be a hell of a way for the organisation to increase their direct donations overnight, and more so if they are "restructuring" more of their "non-workers" in addition to DM. They'll then have a level of funding available to employ a few really specialist (and carefully chosen) educators on extortionate salaries, but it will all be entirely legal - smells a bit really :-(

Perhaps a word with the charities commission might be in order...

If the NGO is officially linked to a Church (ie is an arms-length organisation of a particular Church; has crossover in the Board/management structure with religious) then contact the relevant link people in the Church too. I've known staff in arms-length church NGOs who have managed to get the relevant Church to intervene in employment issues.
Outline your concerns, not only about how your mum has been treated but presumably about the fact her work will no longer continue. Also, point out it raises questions about the organisation's Christian ethos if it treats people badly.

The whole set-up sounds like an absolute scam.

Donors think that they are giving to good causes but actually they are paying the living costs of the fundraiser.

Donors think that they are giving to good causes but actually they are paying the living costs of the fundraiser.

No, the OP wasn't very clear but it's been clarified @PersianCatLady - only 5% of the worker's time is spent fundraising with donors who are very clear what they're donating for. The rest of her time is spent doing good works.