To be shocked that this is happening in Britain in 2018?

[Spending2muchtimeonMN]

Masked men try to prevent women from attending a lawful, public meeting to discuss the impact of proposed changes to the law on women's rights:

www.facebook.com/julie.bindel/videos/pcb.10160135970780316/10160135907955316

This guy was pissed off at the thought some silly little woman found his presence in a dark alley intimidating, so he did what any sane rational fellow would do.

That's what SentMai thinks all men should do. It's seriously offensive that women are scared of strange men, they have every right.

However, if someone has traits that are usually found in women and a man has an overwhelming number of these traits, who are we to say that they aren't a woman?

From my point of view, they aren’t a woman if they weren’t born with a female reproductive system.

I think it’s pretty useful have words that tell you if a mammal is male or female.

You seem to be using the word woman to mean somebody with traits that are traditionally regarded as female, but I don’t understand why you need to segregate people on that basis.

I certainly don’t want to be grouped according to some random and completely subjective concept of relative femininity.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and all that. It's a lot easier to handwave this issue away when you can't actually see the stark reality of what's being done and to whom.

However, if someone has traits that are usually found in women and a man has an overwhelming number of these traits

What would these "traits" be?

To be fair SentMai is responding to questions. I am asking them because it is rare to hear an alternative point of view. I appreciate it when somebody takes the time to make a considered response.

They also get more and more open with their misogyny as time goes on.

Always. You could set your watch by it. SentMai started off going on about logic and trying to come across as the voice of reason, but the frothing will out.

Although referring to the speakers as ‘ranting old women’ is neither accurate nor considered.

merrymouse

Quite, I class myself a woman because I was born with a reproductive system. Just because I happen to have traits men associate with themselves (and I have many) that does not make me a man. I am still a woman.

The problem lies in identifying any traits as male or female. The truth is we are a hybrid of many traits that can be either male or female.

Just because you like to wear a dress does not make you a woman anymore than if I do not wax for a year and grow a beard I suddenly lose the power to produce children and grow a penis!

Our biology is what defines us in the end.

I've cut the grass, weeded the front garden and am now having an end of weekend G&T. And this conversation is still going round and round and round.

I see from Sisters Uncut's page that very few of them were actually going to turn up. So then they decided to extend the invite to their cis male mates because they're a bit more intimidating. How proud they must be to be friends with men who get off on intimidating women. I feel sorry for them that they have such little self-worth.

The only definition of "woman" that works is the "adult human of the class that produces eggs" one. Anything else is down to personality and societal pressure. If you as someone who believes that transwomen are literal women what a woman is they can't tell you.

@merrymouse

One last answer as this thread is predictably deteriorating. A shame as I think I have a lot to learn from women like you and I'm really pleased to put my opinion across.

Before I do, I'm not a man. Not making up any details. I haven't changed my opinion or responses and have tried to return respect to posters who showed it.

I suspect I've outed myself as there are some quite unique details.
You and a few others have been interesting and written intelligent replies but it's pointless to continue here.

Accusations of being a man, a troll, blah blah show how these threads will never be a discussion. They can start off as one but then the twats arrive.

Anyway,

"Cordelia Fine winning any kind of award ... could you elaborate?"

Yes. Academics tend to be liberal leaning. They are looking for funding (DH is one of them) and they tend to shy away from controversial topics.

A basic example would be someone looking to investigate any relation with race and intelligence. I know it's a poor example given that race has no definition but anyone looking to show the differences would struggle with funding.

Fine's two books are flawed from start to finish but she curried favour with academia being liberal and leftist and there being a clear tendency to favour hypotheses of nurture.

Ocam's Razor or any ad hoc hypothesis suggests that she needs a much more robust proof for her work than she has shown.

Testosterone Rex hurts my brain. It's older than the homonin line and the effects of this chemical are demonstrated throughout the primate order. This is shown when children are unaware of their gender. Adding testosterone to unborn apes reversed this trend.

Fine makes weak assumptions and there's a general paucity of intelligent new material. None, in fact.

"It’s not as though women in any country don’t suffer from discrimination"

Women in the UK do suffer discrimination. They seem to be excelling in exams and employment until about 32 years old so good on them. The discrimination seems insignificant based on the results.

"On the other hand gender stereotypes are harmful"

I'd swap "are" for "can be".

"Why not start with legislation that makes sense - question when segregation is necessary"

Definitely. Besides sports, I think it's unnece=ssary.

I think there is over reaction on here sometimes about TRAs, mostly caused by paying too much attention to Twitter, BUT ..fucking hell! How dare they?! How DARE a group of young men mask their faces and try to physically bully and intimidate grown women so they can't attend a perfectly legal political meeting?
It's cowardly and un democratic. In fact its downright fascistic.
Fuckers. I feel like going to a meeting now just because of watching that, although I'm so mad about it I worry I would just kick them in the nuts if they got in my way.

I had to sit on my hands there #TGLWGH

Oh, and SentMay or whatever you're calling yourself today, your relentless need to dismiss the concerns of women on this issue (and it seems most feminist issues) belies your attempt to portray yourself as a uber sophisticated observer with a purely academic interest.
In fact you seem obsessed with trying to diminish the feminist position on most things. I mean, you've been at it all day.
I say trying, because, despite your over inflated sense of your own intelligence, the majority of posters on here seem to be cleverer than you. Sorry.

My view boils down to thinking self-ID will have little to no effect on anyone

Um what about the women who have trained for years in a particular sport, only to be beaten by someone with a massive biological advantage who self-IDs as a women?

And what about the women who for religious reasons can't use toilets or changing areas where a man might see them? I can't see the self-ID argument cutting much mustard with the Imams.

And how about women who have a fear of men when they are in vulnerable situations, e.g. rape victims?

Self-ID WILL have a major effect on all these groups, even if we ignore the potential for abuse by men who say they self-ID to get access to women only areas. A case of minimising the distress and effect for many, for the sake of the convenience or preference of a few.

I am another who objects to being called a TERF. I'm anti self-ID (for the reasons given above) but have no problem with e.g. sharing a toilet with a transitioned women I used to work with, discussing clothes with trans people etc.

@sentMai
You could believe that sex segregation is only essential in sports, if you have very limited experience of life, and have never - for example - worked on a psychiatric ward. Or in the prison service.

I don't think our learned friend should leave. I think they're doing a sterling job and should carry on posting as copiously as possible.

@sentMai What is the acceptable word for an anti self-ID person? My basis for TERF being acceptable was its use in usernames.

Well if you want to refer to people who oppose self ID, how about 'people who oppose self ID'? Surely you don't think everyone who has concerns about the proposed amendments to the GRA is Trans Exclusionary? Is Rod Liddle a Radical Feminist? Personally I would be very irritated to be called a TERF, because it implies a Transphobic attitude- which I would consider deeply insulting.

If I were trying to refer specifically to WPUK members I'd probably go for Gender Critical Feminists.

Are you saying that we cannot hazard a good guess as to whether a brain is male or female based on physical differences mid-gestation?Are you saying that male hormones have no effect on brain development? Are you saying that brain function in males and females (from birth) is the same?

I have no expertise relating to brain structure, though I've read quite a lot for reasons that have nothing to do with this subject; my understanding of what can be said currently is as follows:

1. Brains show a wide variety.
2. Some features are more common in different sexes, but this correlation is relatively low compared to the large range of human brain variety.
3. So (with the exception of size) there is no such thing a 'typical' male or female brain.

I'd be very interested in anything showing a link between specific brain structures and gendered behaviour. I'd also be interested to know what gendered behaviour is related to brain structure?

Surely, for example, you would accept that choice of things like clothing, makeup and the colour pink are social? They vary widely throughout history and in other cultures.

What don said

Thank you for your reply Sentmai.

This being an anonymous forum I have no idea whether you are qualified to question Cordelia Fine’s research. However whatever the effect of testosterone, it’s presence in a male or female is just evidence that it exists in males and females. Unless it’s presence can make a woman start producing sperm it isn’t an indicator of sex.

Regardless of that, Cordelia Fine cannot change the nature of the universe. Argue with her theories if you can, but dismissing them because you think she ‘curried favour’ and is inoffensive is rather weak.

They seem to be excelling in exams and employment until about 32 years old so

That is when the effects of child bearing and living in a culture that expects high fliers to have a wife running the household kick in. Biology and stereotypes.

Hmm I was 30 when I was denied part time working after the birth of my first daughter. I couldn’t afford ft childcare. I took a much lower paid job and it has taken me five years to get back into my previous profession and start earning above national average wage. I have two degrees - one is a first class BSc.

I think my biology had a significant part to play in this (I had a baby)

Average height for a man is 5’9. Average height for a woman is 5’3. That doesn’t mean that everyone of 6’ is male.

I'm not, actually, hugely opposed to self-ID. I'm not that frightened of trans people in the toilets. The sort of social circles I usually move in tend to be generally welcoming to LGBTQ people (including both trans people who are either medically/surgically transitioning to some extent and those who have an alter-ego of the other gender some of the time. Yeah, and also people who have more than one 'identity' that isn't related to sex/gender) so I've had trans friends and aquaintances most of my adult life. Most of them have been nice, one or two have been tiresome but that's been my experience of non-trans people as well. Most refuges, charities etc who work with vulnerable people say they proceed on a case by case basis and that their existing policies work well enough.

What bothers me about the current situation is a) the amount of hype, malice, bullshit and aggression and b) how very slippery so many of the definitions are. The fact that it keeps being brought back to a matter of women being expected to accomodate and make room for people who started life as biological males but now claim they are females (completely ignoring trans men, non-binary people, butch lesbians, drag queens and those who just don't want to conform to their assigned gender roles but like their bodies the way they are) is what makes me think this is all being revved up as a way of enforcing the 'supremacy' of straight men.

Thank you to everyone for continuing to highlight these issues. I have only recently started thinking and reading about the GRA but I am already shocked that anyone can think it is okay to block/ intimidate people from speaking at an event. Regardless of what you believe about something, we are lucky to live in a country which allows freedom of speech. It is important not to let platforms that allow freedom of speech to get shut down.

The thing about the idea of grouping people by "gender", by which people seem to mean which set of stereotypes one conforms to best, is I can't see why this would be in any way a useful way of determining who uses which changing room at the swimming pool, for example. Or why anyone would say "I want a woman to do my pap smear", and mean "I want a person who identifies as a woman/is feminine to do it". When people want a specific space or service to involve women only they mean people with bodies of the sort that can potentially get pregnant, and there are all kinds of reasons for that. What reason could there be for wanting a feminine people only space? Lots of women aren't very feminine - would their being in those spaces be a problem for the people who think the spaces should be divided by masculine/feminine rather than male/female, and if so why?