To be shocked that this is happening in Britain in 2018?

[Spending2muchtimeonMN]

Masked men try to prevent women from attending a lawful, public meeting to discuss the impact of proposed changes to the law on women's rights:

www.facebook.com/julie.bindel/videos/pcb.10160135970780316/10160135907955316

orchid You are very brave. Thanks.

Seems to be men and women there and neither violent nor aggressive.

Screaming “cunt” at someone and grabbing their property or hand is violent and aggressive.

Well, that certainly is an interesting way to define "balanced".

Physically preventing a person from going about their lawful business could possibly be construed as violent, I would think, in this case by standing in the way and refusing to move when asked to. Would be interesting to see a lawyers opinion.
The more episodes like this just makes it appear more and more as if there's something sinister going on.

I don't think there's a single person. I don't think there's a hope in hell for 99% of TERFs to ever reconsider their anti-trans stance. Some might call that ignorant ...

Other would call it well-educated.

Placemarking

sentmai

I would also like to completely agree that it is very unlikely anyone (including men) will support this kind of intimidation of democracy, therefore you are unlikely to even keep hold of the support you do have/did have much less convert those that were already sceptical.

I was an ardent supporter of the transgender community. Huge fan for years ( I can't think of anyone who wasn't in our circles) That was until it was decided my pre teen daughter should now changed with a men, that she could no longer safely go to the loo by herself, then funnily enough I wasn't such a fan after that, and that was before the despicable footage of the meeting.

I can see you haemorrhaging support to be honest.

There is a real chance you will see a huge public backlash now, a sea change of attitude, and that will undo all the good progress and goodwill you have enjoyed up to now.

I'm not a TERF, like summer I was a pretty strong supporter of the transgender community - who wouldn't be? I reached peak trans reading some comments calling lesbians transphobic because they didn't want to have sex with someone with a penis, and the 'choke on my dick' violent narrative from some. I think most people would assume that having a penis precludes someone from being a woman.

@TheElementsSong

I misread your post. Is it really so interesting though? By the way, I see TERF used more frequently in MN usernames (proud self-description) than a pejorative term).

@summerinthecountry

Just to assist you, I explained that despite being a competitive fighter, loud, tall, fit and having SIA accreditations, I too would find that situation intimidating and my training and instinct would probably have told me to remove myself from it.

You have avery unusual idea of violence. Do you extend it to include any passionate argument?

@Springnowplease

Education (in the traditional sense) has nothing to do with one's mind being open to change and considering new or different arguments.

In fact, as far as educational theory goes, your idea is entirely contrary to what educators hope to achieve. Turning children into life-long learners who are open to new ideas as opposed to finished and finalised articles.

I've been a very interested lurker (and sad I felt unable to join in) with anti-trans debates on the feminism boards. It's made me re-evaluate my opinions, definitely appreciate the TERF point of view although ultimately not change my mind.

I too would find that situation intimidating and my training and instinct would probably have told me to remove myself from it.

In other words, "go home" then? Niice.

There are some meetings where I wholeheartedly applaud non-violent disruption

What kind of a meeting? Why would you interfere with somebody's legal right to freedom of expression? If they aren't breaking the law, what right do you have to decide whether they can have a meeting? To me this is like people in America who think they need guns incase they disagree with the government.

Look at what's happened to me and a couple of other posters on this thread who aren't 100% in opposition or perhaps take a more pragmatic or balanced view of events.

Some people disagreed with you? Surely the answer is to report anything that breaks the rules of the site , either agree or disagree with other posters, and back up your opinion with argument?

In all honesty, I don't think the feminist boards are any scarier than the dog owner's board. MN is all moderated. If you stand by your opinion, argue your point, but be prepared to have it interrogated.

Education (in the traditional sense) has nothing to do with one's mind being open to change and considering new or different arguments.

I could have my mind open to the possibility that the earth is flat. But it isn't. Any more than a person with a penis is a woman. He just isn't.

Turning children into life-long learners who are open to new ideas as opposed to finished and finalised articles.

Great plan, as long as you teach them the truth and not some wild fantasy about the earth being flat or people with penises being women.

sentmai

I have never even heard of the term 'terf' apart from a badly spelt piece of green grass in the garden.

The main boards on MN are not a hot bed of terfs or whatever, we are simply mothers that love our children and wish to protect their rights and safety, and to protect the rights of women in general. End of. No big conspiracy to ruin the lives of the transgender community. There is certainly no ill feeling on our part but I do wish to discuss this problem openly and freely, although this may not suit your narrative that we are all terfs! Surely you can understand that transgender rights do not/and will never come before the safety of our children?

I do not feel comfortable sharing changing rooms and lavatories with men that have penises.
I would feel entirely differently if they had fully transitioned and were women effectively. They would be made very welcome. In my humble view dressing like a woman does not make you a woman, you are still biologically a man. I am happy to call you a woman if you want me to, of course, I have good manners and will do everything I can to avoid offending you, but that is very different from sharing a changing room with you.

I will be meeting my MP because I do not feel this situation can continue.

Very well said @summerinthecountry

sentMai so many words from you but little content.
Never in all my life of going to probably over 100 meetings and protests have I felt the need to mask my face or block and intimidate anyone.
I see you too.

You can’t have your own definition of violence. Otherwise it’s OK to say that misgendering is violence. Which I hope we all agree it isn’t.

This.

It was intimidation, it was very aggressive, it carried the implicit threat of violence; BUT the only actual violence was hand slapping.

That said, I think discussing what words to use is a bit derailing (perhaps purposefully?)- more importantly, what can be done? How can debate occur with people like this wanting to shut it down?

By the way, I see TERF used more frequently in MN usernames (proud self-description) than a pejorative term).

@sentMai. An Asian mate of mine uses the term Paki- if I called him that word he'd never speak to me again, because he's had yobs shout it in the street at him. I think if people want to call themselves TERFs that's fine; but if, having been told it's offending people, you still keep using it at them- it's a bit of a dick move. Can't you find another word?

I too would find that situation intimidating and my training and instinct would probably have told me to remove myself from it.

But why would you have done this @sentMai given your training? Would you have assessed intimidation and possible violence by any chance?

Why should anyone be denied the right to meet as a group?

Your views are not balanced. Your views are your own personal agenda and are dismissive of most of those who have posted on this thread.

@sentMai

sentmai

And when the political masses decide this really is too toxic now and they stand to lose huge swathes of voters and abandon the movement along with the policies, you will have no one to blame but yourselves for being so unreasonable.

You should fight for unisex options before it is too late, and then you will have the support of most rational people. Otherwise I am pretty sure this will end very badly for you.

Lot's of people are in jail for 'implicit threats of violence'

sentmai

Just so we can be crystal clear about the use of intimidation as a crime, please find the guidelines below from the sentencing council. I don't think anyone ,including the courts would have any problem charging the defendants (men in the masks) in the footage with the offence below:

Harassment – (without violence) / Racially or religiously aggravated harassment (non violent)
Protection from Harassment Act 1997, s.2, Crime and Disorder Act 1998, s.32
Effective from: 04 August 2008
Harassment
Triable only summarily
Maximum: Level 5 fine and/or 6 months

Racially or religiously aggravated harassment
Triable either way
Maximum when tried summarily: Level 5 fine and/or 6 months
Maximum when tried on indictment: 2 years

Where offence committed in domestic context, refer to guidance

User guide for this offence

Offence seriousness (culpability and harm)
A. Identify the appropriate starting point
Starting points based on first time offender pleading not guilty

Examples of nature of activity Starting point Range
Small number of incidents Medium level community order Band C fine to high level community order
Constant contact at night, trying to come into workplace or home, involving others 6 weeks custody Medium level community order to 12 weeks custody
Threatening violence, taking photographs, sending offensive material 18 weeks custody 12 to 26 weeks custody
Band ranges
Community orders table
Custodial sentences
B. Consider the effect of aggravating and mitigating factors (other than those within examples above)
The following may be particularly relevant but these lists are not exhaustive

Factors indicating higher culpability
Planning
Offender ignores obvious distress
Offender involves others
Using contact arrangements with a child to instigate offence
Factors indicating greater degree of harm
Victim needs medical help/counselling
Action over long period
Children frightened
Use or distribution of photographs
Factors indicating lower culpability
Limited understanding of effect on victim
Initial provocation
Common aggravating and mitigating factors
Form a preliminary view of the appropriate sentence
If offender charged and convicted of the racially or religiously aggravated offence, increase the sentence to reflect this element.

Refer to Explanatory Material on racial or religious aggravation.

I don't think there's a hope in hell for 99% of TERFs to ever reconsider their anti-trans stance

Are you defining 'Trans exclusionary radical feminist' as somebody who does not think trans women are women?

If you believe that the word 'woman' refers to somebody born with a female reproductive system, it's impossible to include men in that definition.

It's not anti trans to insist that words have meaning. It is not 'anti North' or 'North exclusionary' to insist that South and North are not the same. It also doesn't mean that I am attaching any value to North or South.

A feminist can no more exclude somebody from the consequences of having female biology than they can decide when the sun is going to set.

If you want to argue that 'woman' doesn't refer to female biology, fine (Although, we'll still need a word to mean people with female biology), but you also have to be able to define what woman now means. Can you do that?

Anti mask wearing laws

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_laws

I would like to see the masked men charged with harassment as above.

Woshambo - Emotions run high during protests as it's something they truly believe in on both sides.

The women weren't there for a protest they were there for a meeting.

but ppl counter protest all the time.

The women weren't there for a protest they were there for a meeting.

It's unfortunate that's these kinds of events (protests) contain such anger but at the same time it's fuelled by passion.

The women weren't there for a protest they were there for a meeting.

'these kinds of events' are meetings. You know - hire a venue, book some speakers, sell tickets, sort out refreshments etc. - those kind of events.

Any of those thugs outside and on the stairwell could have bought tickets and come along, listened and debated.