...to not want 4 y/o to be in ‘gifted’ programme if it means less playtime?

[abiveve]

I’m turning to Mumsnet in exasperation as Dh and I have been arguing about this for the whole school Easter holidays.

Dd is in reception at a state primary. At the end of last term, we were asked to go into school to meet with her teacher and the school’s ‘Head of Learning’. They told us that dd had been identified as ‘gifted’ and they wanted to put her in the gifted and talented programme. When I asked what this would entail, they said that two days a week, instead of playing outside after lunch, dd and 3-4 other reception children would do extra learning activities to stretch them.

Dh is thrilled by this. I am not. think that it would be fine if they were stretching her more in lesson time, but I don’t want her to have to lose out on playtime twice a week. She’s 4 ffs - I want her to have fun and play outside with her friends, not do extra maths in a stuffy classroom. Especially with summer coming.

FWIW, the school’s Ofsted report last year marked them down for failing to stretch the brightest children, so I worry that they’re taking it to the opposite extreme and dd is going to pay the price. I also think that Dh’s head is swelling rather at the thought of having a ‘gifted’ (hate that word) child - he was straight in on the phone to his parents to tell them after the meeting...

As a parent of a 'gifted' child (now grown up), they would have loved the chance to do ‘logic skills’ at play time. For a lot of gifted children it actually feels like a punishment to be forced to go out side and 'play' when all they want is to do puzzles, read books, or manipulate numbers. Most parents dont get get this, extra study (for truly gifted children) is a pleasure NOT a chore.

OP, it sounds like you’re not sure your child actually is “gifted”. How is she socially? Often “gifted” children have trouble relating to children who aren’t as bright as them. In this sense, the extension work would be good because it would allow her to form bonds with other children who are on her level. That’s only if she does have trouble socialising. If not, I think you’re right to insist she not be taken away from her playtime/friends.

I remember when I was moved into top classes at high school. Moved away from my good friends to a dry, boring teacher who wasn’t nice like my last one. Turns out the reason I was doing so well was that I was happy in that environment. In the top I was bored stiff and then due to more tests moved to the bottom class. You’d think the teachers would cotton on but no...

I think this is a recurring theme with gifted children (not saying I was gifted ). If she’s happy she will do well. You could always try but remove her if she doesn’t like it.

Dd1 is 6 and has had a functional assessment which shows her to be in the 97th percentile for language. She refused to do the maths part and just put zero down, still got average because that was the correct answer for some of the questions, which she knew. DD1 was also diagnosed with ASD, ADD and anxiety.

I agree with you OP. You need to develop all skills and I would also question their determination that your DD is G&T. I couldn't find a professional who would do the assessments when DD1 was four. All said 6.5 was the youngest age they would consider the test results to be reliable.

Socially dd is absolutely fine. She loves playtime, and seems to have lots of friends. She's going on lots of play dates.

As to whether I personally think she's gifted, she's definitely bright - she is reading semi-independently and can write pretty well by four year old standards.

But it seems a little early to be to single her out as academically top, when it may just be that she's picked up reading/writing a little bit more quickly than most of her classmates, and they'll catch up soon enough.

The teacher should be setting differentiated work for all children within the normal classroom structure. I imagine the Offsted complaint was due to a lack of differentiation but it seems the school is still not ‘getting it’

Why not give it a try? Parents often complain their kids aren’t given individual attention; this is the opposite. If DD isn’t getting enjoying it, you can always take her out, but I’ll bet she’ll love it. It certainly won’t destroy anything or harm her socially.

Send her along and see if she likes it. If she is being stretched it might be more fun than playtime. If she doesn't like it pull her out.

My DS7 is in extension and doing sums 2 years above his peers. He loves it. It's at lunch but he has buddies he does it with.

Yanbu here I don’t think. If she’s expressed an interest, then it’s in a different category.

I wholly agree with you. This seriously smacks of ticking an OFSTED box (even at the expense of your DC’s play time!). How difficult for you that your DH doesn’t agree though!! Could you compromise and ask school for little bits of work you could do with her at home?

YANBU. I wouldn’t want my DC missing outdoor playtime and I wouldn’t expect my pupils too in this way either. Both opportunities can be provided in the classroom; reading during 1:1 reading time or group differentiated tasks and if they think logic activities are suitable, they could be set up as enhanced provision.

I don't the OP thinks that learning isn't fun. Of course learning is fun, especially at that age, but a four-year-old has a lot of things to learn and the playground is part of that learning process, not just socially but also running and strengthening their body.

I'd be looking for a new school.

It's absurd 'evidence' and the 'punishment' they're giving her is a sure-fire way of putting her off trying.

Any school which needs to do this and can't differentiate for all children within normal class time needs a serious rethink about its practices.

"I worry that they’re taking it to the opposite extreme"

I think you're exactly right. I've seen it happen time and time again. I'd wager good money that besides them taking this to the extreme, the lower achievers will be forgotten.

(ex OFSTED and worked in schools for 30+ years).

Your child could well enjoy these sessions, I would give it a go and ask her if she enjoys it. No harm in that, it’s not like they are having you sign a contract to a set number of sessions.

She will most likely love it, if she has taken to education like a duck to water.

Totally agree with you, OP.

I started to pretend to be less bright at school because I didn't want to be singled out for extra/more difficult work - they would take five or six of us out of class to work on something else in a small group, which I hated. If it meant missing playtime that would be much worse! A punishment for being clever. Sounds like the school have no idea what they are doing. Also - she's four. Play is so important.

YANBU. In fact to go further, your instinct is spot on here.

My DCs went to a (US) school where there was no setting and no G&T provision. Instead, each child from First Grade to Third Grade had a folder in his/her desk marked 'Never Done Work' in which were writing prompts, arithmetic including geometry that could be tackled by 6-8 yo children, quirky puzzles, drawing prompts, and other brain teaser material.

If a child finished classwork they were to take out whatever interested them from that folder and work on it, and hand it up if it was finished at the end of that lesson. The folders were replenished as needed. The teacher noted what was chosen, how well it was tackled, and provided material that would continue to challenge as indicated. Everyone got to spend lunchtime eating and playing.

Nobody knew who was heading to Harvard from that school until awards night at age 13-14. Each child was valued, and encouraged to 'bloom where they were planted'.

It's a huge mistake to tell children what they are or who they are at a time when they are busy forming their own sense of self. Girls in particular who are labeled 'gifted/talented/clever' can suffer panic and immense self doubt when eventually they come upon material in school that is difficult, or material they fail at. Children who are labeled 'bottom set' very often take that pronouncement about themselves to heart and fulfill the low expectations.

it seems a little early to be to single her out as academically top, when it may just be that she's picked up reading/writing a little bit more quickly than most of her classmates, and they'll catch up soon enough.

Oh yes they will, and if reading/writing is the basis of the G&T label there is a huge danger that she will steer clear of maths if it presents a challenge of any magnitude or if she is put off by the right/wrong element of it. Girls in particular who perceive that they are in teacher's good books because of success in material that has come easily to them (maybe this is true in your case, OP?) can be very wary of taking chances in other subjects, especially where answers are right/wrong. Girls sometimes conflate a wrong answer with losing the friendship of the teacher too.

Combined with the tendency of many teachers to hold unspoken assumptions about girls and boys being language and maths people respectively, you can end up with a girl who shies away from maths under the benign eye of teachers.

I think you need a bit more information on what these sessions would consist of - they might be interesting to your DD. Bright kids that are not stretched can fund it a source of frustration but equally having to live up to a 'gifted' label can be anxiety inducing.

If I were you I'd also be asking the school if they have considered means to adapt ordinary class activity instead (love @mathanxiety folder above). And/or if this activity can be outside of playtimes. I'm not impressed by their 'you are in or out' one size fits all approach of missed playtime.

Schools should be able to stretch all children to attain their potential within the normal structure of lessons. Hate this separation of certain kids. Aren't all children g&t?

I don't know if the dd is 'gifted' but her mum, OP, sounds very bright to me.

Heartened you are not jumping into accepting this offer by the (failing) school.

I think you are reading way too much into this. They are not singling her out, they are suggesting that she could join a group that would challenge her if that's what she wants. She doesn't have to take it. Schools can't win really.

Many bright kids get quite bored, and learning to behave and somehow entertain yourself when you've already processed all the information that is given to you can be quite demanding. It's great for those kids to have time when they are stimulated at their level and they get the adrenaline kicking it from it.

Your DD doesn't have to do it if she's very happy as things are and indeed, could join such a group at a later stage. Maybe she could try and see if she enjoys it or would rather play. Let her decide.

She doesn't have access to an outdoor area m, only at playtime and lunch. That's a definite ofsted fail right there.
Reception is a play based curriculum and child must have access to the outdoor area for the majority of the day. (I work in a reception classroom) I would be sorely tempted to move my child from the school.

Having taught reception, this is completely over the top. The school know what they should be doing to support the needs of all pupils, pulling a 4 year old for extra lessons during her only opportunity for outside play is not it.

Tell your DH that you're proud of DD as well but this absolutely is not the right thing for any child.

And I agree with honey. The reception set up doesn't sound great if there are any alternatives locally.

mathanxiety

I love that idea of "never done work"