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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Criticism of Israel and antisemitism

138 replies

psychomath · 08/04/2018 12:47

This is not a TAAT - it's something I've been thinking about recently anyway with the accusations of antisemitism in the Labour party, and after reading this article in Spiked magazine. The thread about Israel killing a journalist reminded me that I'd been intending to post it, but it's not a response to that thread in particular or any posters in it. Just wanted to get that out of the way before anyone thinks I'm having a passive-aggressive go at them personally.

I do think there's a disproportionate focus among parts of the left on criticising the actions of the Israeli government compared to those of (other) oppressive regimes, both in the Middle East and across the world. I'm sure that the vast majority of individuals involved in this criticism are not remotely antisemitic, and in fact I'm not entirely convinced that antisemitism is the main root of the issue at all. On the other hand, it does seem like there's something strange going on in the wider picture.

It's a tricky issue to discuss because, obviously, criticism of Israeli foreign policy doesn't in itself make you antisemitic, and a lot of it is valid. In addition, everyone has their own particular areas of interest, and it would be ridiculous to require that people know about every single global conflict before being allowed to comment on the Israel-Palestine one specifically. It's also perfectly reasonable for people to want to be able to discuss Israel without others immediately jumping into the conversation to say 'why do you only ever talk about Israel and not Saudi Arabia/ISIS/whoever?' So no individual is doing anything inherently wrong by having these conversations, and in and of themselves they're good and important conversations to have.

However, if it were simply a case of people having different interests, you would expect to see a number of groups devoted to criticism of various regimes - some people would be interested in Israel, but there would be similar numbers whose biggest concern was the Saudi bombing of Yemen, or Turkish attacks on Kurdish regions of Syria. Instead, there's a huge amount of support among the left generally for the Palestinian cause - numerous student unions officially support BDS, for example, and Israeli Apartheid Week is often marked by events on campus - whereas there seems to be (comparatively) far less attention drawn to or even understanding of the other issues. Among the left-wing people I know personally, everyone has an opinion on the Israel-Palestine conflict, but very very few are even aware that there is a civil war in Yemen, never mind angry about the Saudi involvement in it and our own continuing ties with the Saudi government. That's anecdotal of course, but from reading left-wing pages and blogs it seems to be reflected in wider society as well.

So when people complain about 'whataboutery' in conversations about Israel, or how they should be able to discuss the actions of the Israeli government without being accused of antisemitism, I don't think they're entirely wrong to be annoyed by it. But at the same time, I think people need to understand that these conversations don't happen in a vacuum. When you're confronted by what feels like a constant steady drip of anti-Israel sentiment, and simultaneously see very little criticism of other countries' policies even when they're arguably as bad or worse, it's hard not to feel under fire sometimes. And because it's such a widespread and decentralised phenomenon, there's often no place to direct this frustration except (perhaps unfairly) at the individuals participating in these conversations. AIBU to see it this way?

OP posts:
maxthemartian · 11/04/2018 10:39

So how do you explain Jewish people who criticise Israel? Also anti- Semitic then?

Cuisant · 11/04/2018 10:44

ILikeMyChickenFried - think you're getting confused.

"it doesn't mean every criticism of Israel is one of Judaism too" - no-one said it did. Hmm

You're welcome to criticise Israel the same as you do any other country. I criticise British government policies all the time. I'm none too keen on Netanyahu. I think Hungary's government stinks. etc.

All fine.

BUT - when your criticisms of the government of the country are used as an excuse to just wipe that country off the map, and only that country, then yes, of course that looks like anti-Semitism, and I will call it out as such.

If all the countries with shit governments had to cease to exist, I think you'd find the world was left with...um Scandinavia and that's about it.

If you support getting rid of Israel on those grounds, it's definitely bye-bye to the UK too.

TheEgregiousPeach · 11/04/2018 10:45

Umm,Max, I think you'll find that Jewish people who criticise Israels actions are not anti the existence of Israel. Which would be considered anti- Semitic

Cuisant · 11/04/2018 10:46

maxthemartian - ah, another confused person. Hmm

Read my reply to ILikeMyChickenFried.

So tell me who we're going to give the UK to, given that our government is absolutely shit, corrupt, responsible for lots of deaths etc then?

RedDwarves · 11/04/2018 10:54

Yes, I'm curious whether people have the same perspective about every other colonised country on the planet. Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the US? Should all of the non-natives be expelled from those countries too, because those countries - as they exist now - actually have no right to?

Why is it just Israel? And don't fanny about with the "I feel the same about those countries too!" because I'm yet to see a thread about how Canada shouldn't exist as non-natives encroached on someone else's territory.

ShackUp · 11/04/2018 11:02

Thank you for this threadOP, so interesting.

I've started to rethink my 'automatic' left allegiances in light of the GRA and the self-ID madness. I've always been critical of the Israeli government, and I think it's linked to a tendency of mine to 'support the underdog' I.e. the Palestinians, or as I see it, the oppressed party.

I'm reconsidering my position.

ShackUp · 11/04/2018 11:08

(Although I'm a long way from aligning myself with 'mad' Mel Phillips Grin)

ILikeMyChickenFried · 11/04/2018 11:09

I don't think we should eliminate Israel as a country. I think some.of the treatment of the Palestinians in wrong. That being said, the Palestinians aren't helping themselves either. I have several Jewish friends and one Muslim friend who is very vocal about this issue and somedayw my Facebook feed is full of propaganda from either side so I hope my view isn't too biased in either direction.

The thread was about general criticism of Israel and it's relation to antisemitism not aboit completely getting rid of the entire country. I was merely stating that it is possible to criticise the actions of the Israeli government without it being an attack on all Jewish people.

cingolimama · 11/04/2018 11:10

Shack up, could I just say that it is heartening to read your last post. It's becoming so rare that people actually listen to another viewpoint. And consider their own position.

Thank you.

ILikeMyChickenFried · 11/04/2018 11:14

I think the issue woth Israel is discussed so much because firstly it's a current and on going situation and secondly it's very relevant to a lot of people worldwide. I've Jewish friends who've never lived in Israel, their parents have never lived in Israel but they call it "home". There just isn't the same number of native Americans or aboriginal Australians living in the UK who care strongly about losing their home countries. As the Israel problem is more relevant, we hear more about it and people develop an opinion.

ShackUp · 11/04/2018 11:23

cingolimama I've only recently realised that I tended to assume an automatic position, and it's just posturing. I'm not doing a 180 on the subject but I don't see how an agreement can be reached without give/take and meeting halfway.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 11/04/2018 11:29

As the Israel problem is more relevant, we hear more about it and people develop an opinion

Doesn't that raise the thorny old question about whether we hear about it more because people care, or that they care because we hear about it more?

Regarding current situations which are "relevant" to UK residents, we also have a huge Indian and Pakistani population, many of whom no doubt have views on the continuing violence over the Kashmir border. There are killings all the time there too, to the point where there are now plans for thousands of protective shelters, but good luck with finding anything about that in any of the daily rags

Cuisant · 11/04/2018 11:34

ILikeMyChickenFried - "I don't think we should eliminate Israel as a country. I was merely stating that it is possible to criticise the actions of the Israeli government without it being an attack on all Jewish people."

Good. We all agree then!

Unfortunately, while that is your view, there are plenty of posters on this thread eg peacheachpearplum and maxthemartian who are arguing that we should "eliminate Israel as a country".

And it's those posters I am accusing of anti-Semitism, not the ones who think Netanyahu is wrong (I agree with the latter).

ILikeMyChickenFried · 11/04/2018 11:41

That's fair enough. I was responding to the OP, not every single person who had posted on the thread since.

Cuisant · 11/04/2018 11:43

"I think the issue woth Israel is discussed so much because firstly it's a current and on going situation and secondly it's very relevant to a lot of people worldwide."

Hmmm. I think that explains some of the vast over-emphasis on Israel in the news media (see my posts on page 1 of this thread for quite how massive the over-emphasis is), but not all of it.

There are plenty of situations that are on-going but virtually no-one ever talks about. The situation in Yemen at the moment, for example. The numbers dying every month dwarf the numbers killed in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in years - and yet we have a virtual media blackout on it? Why?

As to the suggestion that it is because it affects so many people in the UK, well puzzledandpissedoff has given the example of Kashmir. You give give dozens of other examples of things that are relevant to the UK population but there is a virtual media blackout on. The rights of the 3 million Brits who live in the EU post-Brexit, for example - massively important, to about 10 X more people in the UK than Israel is, but no-one ever talks about it. Why not? Why are their voices not heard in the UK, yet what are supposedly the voices of "the Palestinians" (actually their supporters - it's very rare we actually hear the voices of Palestinian people themselves) are given so much continual airspace?

As I said previously, if you're looking for bias in the media, you need to look at more than just how a story is written (though that is one factor). A much more important factor is whether the story is written at all, and if it is written, how many times it is published.

Cuisant · 11/04/2018 11:58

For example, look at today's Independent home page. (And you could do this on any day - yesterday was actually far worse, as they've taken down about 3 anti-Israel stories since then.)

Today you can find the following stories about Israel. And I'm not making this up. But it is extraordinary, and almost humorous in its lack of self-awareness:

  1. Daniel Amir The Gaza protest showed how Israel is immune to criticism
  2. Ben White It’s no surprise the ICC is warning that it may intervene in Gaza
  3. At least nine dead as clashes on the Gaza-Israel border continue (that article was from Saturday! - but it's still there on the home page, making it look like there have been 9 more deaths.

And finally, without any apparent irony at all! -

  1. Patrick Cockburn Israel has faced little criticism over Palestinian deaths

That would be...except in the Independent, then. Hmm Grin

Please note that this 'news' is actually several days old - they are reporting deaths that happened last week. But if you read the paper, you would get the impression that this was a) continuing b) unreported elsewhere and 'hidden' (hardly Hmm ) and c) more important in the grand scheme of things than all the other deaths in other conflicts going unreported. (Articles on continuing deaths - an estimated 130 Yemeni children are dying every single day - in Yemen, caused by Saudi Arabia - ZERO.)

Cuisant · 11/04/2018 12:02

If that is not media bias I don't know what is.

And this is not just in the Independent. I picked that because the headline about there being hardly any criticism of Israel in a newspaper that was stuffed with it amused me, but you could look at pretty much all British media and find the same bizarre over-focus.

maxthemartian · 11/04/2018 12:02

Excuse me, where did I say Israel should be eliminated as a country?

Cuisant · 11/04/2018 12:03

ShackUp - (Although I'm a long way from aligning myself with 'mad' Mel Phillips)

Well, that will make all of us, then! Grin

Mightymucks · 11/04/2018 12:04

The Independent is Saudi owned.

maxthemartian · 11/04/2018 12:05

I think it's creation was a mistake. But it's there now so a solution needs to be found that is fair to everyone in the region.
I love how that has been twisted to me being an anti-Semite wishing for Israel's destruction.
It's an interesting tactic.

Cuisant · 11/04/2018 12:06

Is it, mightymucks? I thought the owner was Russian? Was I wrong then?

Either way, not terrible...um... Independent, then.

Cuisant · 11/04/2018 12:08

maxthemartian - apologies, then, for misunderstanding you. Your posts about Israel's "colonial" justification appeared to suggest that, but if I've misunderstood you, then I'm very glad to hear that.

peacheachpearplum has however been unequivocally been arguing that Israel should not exist, throughout this thread, as I'm sure you are aware.

NameChanger22 · 11/04/2018 12:13

So how do you explain Jewish people who criticise Israel? Also anti- Semitic then?

My experience of living in Israel was that the younger generation were more critical of their government than the older generations. In the same way that our younger generation is of our government. I didn't meet any Israelis who thought they shouldn't have a homeland. Of course they have a right to be there and to defend themselves.

twelly · 11/04/2018 16:46

Being critical of the Israeli government policy does not make someone anti Semitic, however, the view that Israel as a nation shouldn't exist is. The world is full of a huge number of nations whom are guilty of human right violations and these countries do seem to attract the vicious remarks that Israel does.

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