IANBU - SIL and dinner conversation

[AlphaApple]

SIL (DH's sister) is recently widowed and a devout Christian (this is relevant). We are her only family near by so try to spend as much time as we can with her because she is lonely and sad.

She came around for dinner tonight. My DH, my DD and my parents were here. She dominated the conversation with:

How life is a daily struggle without her husband.

How we were all going to hell. Living a good life wasn't enough to get you into heaven, you had to be a true follower of Christ. Me, my DH, my parents, my 10 year old DD were all going to hell.
How I would have to move house when my husband dies because I couldn't get the logs in for the fire on my own.
How my mother would have to move into a home when my father dies because she wouldn't cope living on her own.
How my dog would probably die when we left him with a dog sitter for a week when we go on holiday.
And the icing on the cake, how no one but widows understood true grief (my DH lost his son to leukaemia, but apparently that wasn't the same).

After everyone had tried to gently steer then conversation to other topics I finally snapped and told her to change the subject. I was probably rude when I said it and the rest of the evening was pretty uncomfortable. I wasn't U was I?

She sounds as if she has a mental health problem. This ranting isn't normal especially in front of a ten year old. You weren't unreasonable to tell her to change the subject but were remarkably restrained.

I'd have told her to fuck off out of my house. I appreciate it's hard for her given the circumstances but how dare she say your child is going to hell in front of her and as for saying your DH doesn't know true grief, there are no words.
She would not be welcome back in my home .

Is she a fairly strict baptist by any chance? A relative of mine used to come out with stuff like this.

She wouldn't have counselling, it's the work of Satan (as is yoga, meditation or anything vaguely non-Christian).

I think her grief has amplified some difficult parts of her personality. I'm hoping time and kindness will heal a bit, but she will always have that side to her.

You may find she just gets worse and worse as she becomes more bitter and twisted. Keep your 10 year old away. Hell, keep away yourself.

She's always blurted out truly shocking things. If I wrote them here I'd be accused of making them up. But it's not in a rant, it's just in reasonable conversation tones.

Awful. Can you discreetly tell her vicar, pastor, minister, whatever, the poor state she's in? She may trust him/her enough to believe that her extreme views are a symptom of grief.

That is pretty disinhibited. Has she been like this a long time? How old is she?

And no yanbu.

I'm widowed and read an excellent book on grieving that pointed out that those in grief don't develop new characteristics, just exaggerated or diminished versions of themselves, and your second post suggests this. That she expresses her grief is bound to happen, but judging you, and your family, and especially the grief competing is entirely out of order. To feel that one's grief is worse than another's is natural, but is an instance when one should just STFU.

Other stuff about the dog dying, the not coping are most likely her own fears being projected.

The fact that she apologised is encouraging, shows she has some idea of boundaries and is the way forward if you want to continue seeing her. While she was crass about the death planning in front of your child, I agree it's a good idea to have thought about these things: wills, what to do if it all goes tits up, money etc. The going to Hell, not so much.

I think possibly you were being unreasonable, for letting her rant for so long! Is your husband saying anything about it? Telling someone who has lost a child that they don't know true grief doesn't sound like normal behaviour, to say the least.

How affected is your DC by her nonsense?

I know some 10yo’s that would justbroll their eyes (afterwards in private) and some that would be incredibly upset. For me, that would be the determining factor in what I did about her.

Oh God, I used to hang around with this sort of Christian. The week after Diana's death, I went to a service where the sermon was about how she was going to hell because she wasn't saved. I swear they all enjoyed it.

I did not go back and spent 3 years of therapy dumping my faith, such was the wreckage that bunch of arses left me with.

The rest of her social circle will only be encouraging her in this madness, not helping her. You and your DH will have to kindly but firmly, and possibly very bluntly, remind her of normal rules of behaviour.

echt sorry for your loss. Your explanation is really helpful actually. Can you recommend the book?

She's a bog standard Anglican, whoever asked. Not the usual place to find proper fire & brimstone preaching (she's actually an ordained minister, it's not her occupation but she does take services. I dread to think what her sermons are like these days).

DH is used to her so ignores her when she's outrageous like tonight. They are polar opposites, he's relentlessly positive, even in his grief.

She does sound difficult. I'm a Christian and I have no issue with counselling, it can be really helpful. There are actually Christians who are counsellors (my DSis is one!). That's different from so-called Christian counselling, btw, which can be very suspect.

A professional counsellor who is a Christian, though, could be what she needs. They will pray with you if you want to, which from what you've said your SIL would appreciate. But they should also be BACP registered. Maybe a few sessions would be very helpful to her.

But in the meantime, you shouldn't tolerate her insulting you the way she has.

Depending on her church, telling the vicar may be of no help at all. The church I went to, the pastor would have been delighted with her views. They are standard, full-on hardcore evangelical stuff in some circles.

I had friends who thought it perfectly appropriate to tell other friends they would be going to hell as they weren't Christians, or were the wrong sort of Christians, in normal conversational tones over a drink at the pub.

You have a lot of patience, more than I would have had. I cannot stand religious ranting. You were not in the least unreasonable, your 10 year old daughter didn't need to be party to that, goodness knows what thoughts have been put into her head, maybe you should have a discussion with her about her aunt grieving and being irrational.

BTW - some of these friends were Anglicans - it depends which church you go to. It's a broad church and she would find others with similar views to her.

I got taken to one Anglican church and the opening item was how gays were going to hell. Again, another I didn't go back to. It was a really popular church too

Bog-standard Anglican here, and I've never come across anyone whose beliefs are as strong as that. It isn't your regular Anglican stuff.

Annie thank you. My lovely mum did an excellent job of distracting my DD at the other end of the table. But she is a sensitive soul (as most 10 year olds probably would be when talking about death and hell) so we'll maybe talk it through tomorrow. The poor dog is recovering (well) from a fairly serious illness and DD's been really anxious about him (they adore each other).

Sounds like some dinner party, OP!

I'd be scaling back the future invites though.

Her attitude is not typical of Christians. It is exclusive to her and possibly a small handful of others. Don't confuse the fact she says she is a Christian and comes out with stuff like that, as meaning all Christians think like that. We don't.
I have to say, I started to read, thinking - 'give her a break, she's newly widowed and needs time to grieve', but lost any empathy at her lack of understanding for your dh losing a child.
I'm sorry, but - not that it is a competition, but there is NO comparison between losing a husband who must have been at least in his 70s, over losing your own child. That is an unforgivable thing to say.
Most of the rest sounds like just really odd opinions, but that is awful.

Anna yes, the gays are all going to hell according to SIL. She stopped voting Tory when David Cameron brought in gay marriage and started voting UKIP

But on the other hand, she has bags and bags of compassion for others, she's shown real kindness, loyalty and friendship to many in her circle and her church and community. She's not a cartoon baddy, just a difficult person at a difficult time in her life.

AlphaApple, thank you for your kind thoughts. The book is "Coping With Grief" by Mal McKissop and Dianne McKissop. It's Australian, though available worldwide, cheap and just over 100 pages. It addresses the needs of those supporting the bereaved as well as the bereaved themselves. It's concise, unwoollly, comforting and enlightening.

I hope things improve between you and your SIL.

My sister is a recent Christian, and is very devout. I can't be around her anymore. I can't bear the "I'm so much better than you are" attitude.

I'd quietly phone her in a few days, and say while you appreciate her faith is a huge comfort to her, DD is at a very vulnerable age and she was very frightened and upset by the conversation tonight. So from now on, any religious talk needs to happen away from her ears and preferably not in your home. I'd also try and point her towards some sort of counselling or therapy, as frankly she sounds a bit deranged. To say that to your DH about grief is unforgiveable, no matter how upset she is herself.