To think if you had to kill the animal yourself you wouldn’t eat meat

[Starchime22]

First off I’m not vegetarian, although I’m starting to lean that way, (as in, I eat fish, and occasionally meat if I’m in a restaurant, but never buy or cook meat myself) so it’s not my intention to criticise or goad omnivores.

But I’ve been thinking about how I’d have no problem killing a fish to eat, (and have) but definitely couldn’t kill a cow or a pig, and probably not a chicken. I’m not sure how many people could, really.

Is it right to eat something you couldn’t bear to kill yourself? Or watch being killed? I’m not saying it isn’t, just interested in what people think.

Kiki. Im not against vegetarianism at all but you aren’t going to change anyone’s mind simply by repeating the phrase ‘unnessecery violence’ ad nuseaum. I’ve just counted and you’ve repeated it 19 times and that’s just on this last page of posts 😂. It lessens the effect of what you are saying and makes you sound like a inarticulate politician who’s been told that sound bites work when the clearly don’t. I also think it’s a pointless phrase as I suspect most people are like me in that they don’t see animal slaughter when done properly as ‘unnecessary violence’.

If you really want to try and change peoples outlook there are probably more effective ways. I eat meat but very little and I try and only eat meat that is farmed locally and has not been reared intensively. How about suggesting to people the health benefits of eating less meat and and suggesting people look at animal welfare rather than endlessly berating people with the ‘unnecessary violence’ phrase.

God Kiki. You're not going to win anyone over with your attitude are you. I've pretty much eaten a vegetarian diet for the past 35 years, but your attitude makes me want to go and bury my face in a plate of meat. Seriously. Give it up.

Heifer whines could be human cries
Closer comes the screaming knife
This beautiful creature must die
This beautiful creature must die
A death for no reason
And death for no reason is murder
And the flesh you so fancifully fry
Is not succulent, tasty or kind
It's death for no reason
And death for no reason is murder
And the calf that you carve with a smile
Is murder
And the turkey you festively slice
Is murder
Do you know how animals die?

[Verse 2]
Kitchen aromas aren't very homely
It's not comforting, cheery or kind
It's sizzling blood and the unholy stench of murder
It's not natural, normal or kind
The flesh you so fancifully fry
The meat in your mouth
As you savour the flavour of murder
No, no, no, it's murder
No, no, no, it's murder
Oh... and who hears when animals cry?

It's fine to eat something you haven't or couldn't kill. We have division of labour because some people can do things that others can't.

I'm good at educating children but imagine I'd be shit at making a chest of drawers yet I still have furniture in my house.

I've killed rabbits, pheasant, guineafowl, chickens, deer and fish. I've prepared them all. I'd kill a cow, pig etc if I was able to do it quickly but imagine that I couldn't safely use a gun big enough to do the job humanely. I don't think or care about those animals but I still feel guilty for the badger I accidentally hit with my car 20+ years ago.

If stupid bloody cats were good to eat then I'd see shooting and eating them as a win-win.

I don't think people should have to kill meat to earn the right to eat it but I do think that they should have an understanding of meat being killed so that they respect food. They shouldn't waste any part of an animal and they should know that eating every edible part is a 'luxuary'. In our house we often have tongue or trotter. Bones are used for soup etc.

I would never eat something like sharks fin soup but would (do) eat flake when in Aus.

If it's sustainable, killed quickly, tasty and we can eat or use most of the animal then I have no moral issue with killing and eating it. I have far bigger objections to selective breeding of animals for pets which give the animals health problems.

Seriously, none of the arguments you have posited have been unusual or new. Do you really think anyone with half a brain hasn't thought of them already?

I hope one day we look back on our ‘meat’ eating with astonishment that humans did that.

I don’t think we will though.
I could liken it to the sex industry.

Well we like it so we won’t stop.
We can so we will.

I think both are wrong.
I can’t intellectually debate it.
Im not that bright that I can construct an argument. To some it’s an ethical dilemma, to me, there’s no dilemma, it’s clear.

It’s more about doing unto others, and my intuition.

All I can do something about is me. I’m past trying to convince people. I stick to my beliefs.

Peace and love everyone.

Roderick that is just another emotive poem. And a pretty crappy one at that. No logic, no rationality, no real argument, just more 'this is how I feel and everyone who feels differently is wrong'.

I've eaten vegetarian meals for the past three days just because we have all felt like it but I am going to nosh some delicious chicken tonight because of you and kiki.

@kikisparks
I couldn't agree with you more, Kiki.
Everyone on Mumsnet seems to eat only the most ethical meat that they have either cuddled to death themselves or bought from a local organic butcher.
No matter how the animal has been killed, it's still a murderous act. The animal did not want to die. Cows and other animals yelp in pain and feel suffering when their calf's are taken away from them. How can you ignore this? It is totally unjustified and unnecessary.
There are other food options out there, and yet people all around the world are too lazy to investigate these options and open their mind to foods that don't involve death.
I cannot believe the people on this thread, trying to pick apart Kiki's argument because she's actually making you think about your actions, and this makes you uncomfortable.
Meat is the number one cause of heart disease, and yet you STILL think it's okay to eat it?
White meat is a carcinogen! But sure, keep on eating it.

@ikeepaforkinmypurse @PinkCrystal @lljkk
Plants don't have a nervous system. Therefore they cannot feel. That honestly is just about the most stupid argument EVER.
"I eat sentient animals that didn't want to die, but who cares - you eat PLANTS!"
It's comical how far meat eaters will go to justify their actions.

Curiousmoi
You haven't read the posts properly, and you just refuse to acknowledge the hypocrisy of people like you.

Unlike you, I am very comfortable in admitting that animals are killed for me to eat them and use their body parts - I very rarely eat live beings, my food is mainly dead. I am more concerned by animal welfare than you are, because said animals are ending in my plate so it is my best interest to have them treated well!
If I had to, of course I would kill my own food, but it would be more pleasant for the burgers-to-be if someone could show me how to do it as swiftly and painlessly as possible.

And death for no reason is murder
true
so cowardly shooting a wild animal to take a photo and let it rot is murder. Killing an animal to eat it is natural.

@ikeepaforkinmypurse
How did you come to the conclusion that you, an individual participating in the murder of animals, care more about animals than me, and individual advocating for animals to have the right not to be needlessly murdered?
Neither are natural, hunting animals is of course wrong, as is killing them for food. The only reason you care more about the hunted animals is because they tend to be elephants, giraffes, zebras etc....
YOU are the hypocrite.
You have been indoctrinated to believe some animals are more important than others, and some should be killed as it's "natural" and "a way of life". It's not. You're not an animal. You don't need meat to survive. You've proven my point, the fact that you need to be educated as to how an animal should be killed properly proves that humans were not made to eat them.
Do you think tigers have a degree in killing antelopes?
Seriously, The idiocy and hypocrisy are showing through your argument now.

I cannot believe the people on this thread, trying to pick apart Kiki's argument because she's actually making you think about your actions, and this makes you uncomfortable

You can’t tell people what they think. I don’t feel uncomfortable eating meat. I just don’t. I’m fine with it.

The only reason you care more about the hunted animals is because they tend to be elephants, giraffes, zebras etc....

you seem to struggle to understand.
What I said is that it's murder to kill an animal to take a photo, so ANY ANIMAL, and then let it rot.
Killing zebras, (never tried), crocodile (bit tough), kangaroos (quite nice), cows (I love veal), lamb (scrumptious on a spit-roast), deer (too strong for my own taste) to eat them is natural.

Where did I say some animals were more important than others?

I like how you are running out of arguments, so you are completely making up things I have never said. Educate yourself about food production, and how your "Innocent" food is not so innocent and consequence-free. I also eat meat because I love the taste.

Kiki do you consume dairy products?

I've read back and I think that you don't. Fair play.

I don't feel in the least uncomfortable about eating animals. The self-righteous blathering of the vegetarian evangelists on this thread really doesn't change that. I have far more respect for our DD1, who is a committed vegetarian but doesn't preach at DD2 and me for making different choices. I respect her choice, she respects ours.

pointythings
Roderick that is just another emotive poem. And a pretty crappy one at that. No logic, no rationality, no real argument, just more 'this is how I feel and everyone who feels differently is wrong'.

Sack the lyricist. No future for him in song writing.

@pointythings
That's the thing though, for you, eating animals is a choice. Whereas the animals did NOT have a choice in the matter. This is why eating animals is a selfish act. We do easily forget about the animal in the situation, it's their right to live, and yet you have taken that away from them.
The fact that you don't feel the slightest bit uncomfortable when eating an animal is slightly disturbing imo.

My grandmother said one of her early memories was seeing her mother wring a chicken's neck for supper and that she knew then she didn't want to grow up to remain on a farm as was expected of her.

She still cooked and ate chicken and other meats, but from her perspective which I think I agree with, most would rather not could do it if they needed to, some will never be able to do it, but some can just snap a neck because they just can and it's not always the people we expect (great grandma was a tiny soft-spoken women). It's just one of those things like some cultures developed meat and/or dairy focused while others developed more grain and plant focused - mix of environment and personal nature.

I think a lot of us wouldn't eat some of the things we eat or use the things we do if we had to do all the work to do it. None of us are entirely independant or have entirely ethical consumption. I mean, the human costs for a lot of vegan foods isn't exactly free of suffering. We just do what we can do and make the choices we can.

@ikeepaforkinmypurse
Your exact words were "I am more concerned by animal welfare than you are".
How can you not see that YOU ARE EATING AN ANIMAL THAT DID NOT WANT TO BE KILLED AND EATEN! How hard is it to get that into your head? I honestly question the intelligence of some people when it comes to the meat industry and their knowledge surrounding what goes on.
You honestly think you are more concerned about an animals welfare than me? The most important thing to any living being is being able to live. I'm advocating for this, you're against that.
Therefore you do not care for an animals welfare in the slightest if you're taking away their most basic right.

Apologies I haven’t read the full thread (it’s 16 pages) but if society broke down and we all had to scavenge and hunt for our food in a post apocalyptic U.K. it would be pretty hard to survive year round on fruit and vegetables. You’d starve pretty quickly.

In those circumstances I’d have no qualms about hunting and killing in order to feed myself and my children.

Curiousmoi
my dear, because these animals end up in my plate, I do care more about their welfare whilst you seem to think that keeping them alive is all you need to care about. You are not concerned with farming, environment, farm workers and what the food industry is.

Educate yourself, also research what happens to animals who are not being killed and research where your food and clothes come from.

Do you think that by not eating animals you 've done your bit and don't need to be concerned by anything else? It must be lovely to live in such a simple world.

You are either a complete hypocrite, or absolutely ignorant and stupid. I don't really care to know which one you are. I am not going to stop feeding my kids or even my dogs and I do like the taste of meat.

Just a thought, if we all stopped eating meat and dairy products tomorrow then pretty much all the cows, lambs, chickens, pheasants and pigs in the world would need to be slaughtered anyway.

The farmers wouldn’t just keep feeding them for fun and we caurrently breed far more of these species than is necessary than if they were just another wild animal.

there are very interesting studies calculating the effects if the world suddenly decided to become veggie. The effect on the environment of the excessive and sudden demand in exclusive plant-based food would be quite interesting to say the least.

i think some posters on this thread imagine that all animals would be released in "the wild" to roam a free and happy life
I don't think they even have a clue how not so well these animals would survive their first winter to start with!