To refuse to shop in places with a minimum card spend?

[kenchurch]

Not sure if I am being unreasonable or not.

It's 2018 and almost everyone used a debit (or credit) card to buy things.
I very rarely carry cash on me.

I point blank refuse to shop anywhere with a minimum total spend to be able to use my card.

Example; I'd fancied a specific type of chocolate all day and had a fairly rubbishy day. Went to shop with £1.05 in change (!). This chocolate is usually £1. It was £1.20, so I went to use my card, but no, minimum £5 spend. So I put the chocolate back, and the guy said he had other types for £1, but instead of giving in and getting one, I just said no thanks and left.

I'm sorry that it costs you to have a card reader etc, but other business also have extra costs associated with the modern age, such as WIFI or other softwares.

It's part of the cost of running a shop so face it and swallow it.

AIBU?

Small shops don't necessarily have to pay a flat fee on transactions. They could use a provider that charges a percentage.

If I've understood iZettle's web site correctly, they would have charged OP's shop owner 2p for this transaction.

So it was reasonable of the OP to expect to pay for a £1 item with a card, and antiquated of the shop-owner not to be using a card service that would have made the transaction viable.

Hopefully the consequence of card fees being banned is that more shop owners will realise they that don't have to use the card service offered by their own bank, and will start using cheaper ones.

We are moving towards a cashless society, though, and processing cash is time-consuming and not free.

There are also new payment providers who don’t charge monthly fees or a fixed rate - so it’s perfectly possible to provide that service.

I do think it is either short-sighted or naive of businesses to put restrictions on how customers pay. Customers do expect convenience, and they have the right to seek it elsewhere if they don’t get it.

I’m a small business owner.

@firesuit crossed post

I suspect t'internet, Amazon and social media in general has introduced a huge demand for cheap and instant gratification that the reality of the High Street just cannot meet.

Perhaps. But you aren’t describing a high st, you are describing a rural environment with poor infrastructure. There is inevitably a difference between that and cities. None of the reasons you cite apply on a city high street, which is why cash only in such places is vanishingly rare. The argument about sme share if the economy similarly: only a tiny portion of that is cash-only businesses, which in any event no-one further up the supply chain will deal with.

I believe the problem with izettle is that the money takes a while to arrive so there is a cost in working capital as well as 2%. They are supposedly holding it to guard against fraud, but obviously it smooths their cash flow as well.

But as the posts up thread points out, few people go to shops as an act of charity, and over time the willingness of people to carry and use cash will fall. It’s up to businesses to respond. It has to be said that the stereotype of the whinging shop owner (you all know fuck all, shit like pensions) is out in force. You get that telling people they know fuck all isn’t envisaging the into your shop, yes?

Encouraging

Its not 2% it is 0.2%. The 2% charge is dfor credit cards. The 0.2% charge is for debit cards

Perhaps. But you aren’t describing a high st, you are describing a rural environment with poor infrastructure. Which, these days, is the only places a rel High Street still exists, isn't it?

There is inevitably a difference between that and cities. None of the reasons you cite apply on a city high street, which is why cash only in such places is vanishingly rare. Yup! Which is why I said, clearly, that I am talking about rural places. We are an actual town, by the way! But some posters here seem to believe that EVERYWHERE is urban London

The argument about sme share if the economy similarly: only a tiny portion of that is cash-only businesses, which in any event no-one further up the supply chain will deal with I was posting to respond on a couple of issues, that one was to posters who moaned about small businesses being shite to staff. I was pointing out that the vast majority of small businesses seem to be sole traders and that some posters might need to re-think how these one man bands support the economy as a whole.

But I think that was a response to a lot of previous MN threads about small businesses being greedy / unprofitable / not needed etc etc,

The fees im quoting are what we pay Worlpay at work

Margaret much as I like banging my head against brick walls, I fear I shall have to leave you to your fault finding, misreading and taking of offense. This sole trader is off to trade

I hope you have a profitable day Curious.

Some posters seem to be unable to think outside what is their "normal", and that there are parts of Britain that don't operate the same way that urban areas with good Wi-Fi and better infrastructures work.

Some posters seem to be unable to think outside what is their "normal"

Not in the slightest. The point is that people run their lives the way that suits them, and for payment systems that is inevitably going to be "Deal with (100-x)% of what I need, the small x% can in general be done without", and the size of that x will vary from person to person.

I'd prefer to only use one payment card and that be AmEx, because I get the most airmiles on it; I settle the bill by direct debit at the end of the month, so ideally I'd put all my expenditure through it. AmEx acceptance is low enough that I use another card as well, because holding a "take AmEx or I don't do business with you" would hurt me enough to notice. However, in the places I live, work and travel I don't need cash other than for a tiny number of possible transactions, and it hurts me less to simply not do business with those people rather than the faff of carrying cash.

Very, very low down my list of priorities is "what about the small businessman", for the simple reason that I do business with a lot of sole traders who take cards, BACS, etc. The small number who don't presumably have their reasons, but I'm afraid that isn't my problem. Endless "ah, but what about?" claims about how my life would be improved by carrying cash entirely miss the point. I'm relatively affluent, I spend a lot of money in the local community (food, entertainment, drink), and places that only take cash don't get any of that. That's their choice, but it's my choice as well. It doesn't hurt me, because there are no businesses that I need to do business with where there isn't an alternative that will do business the way I, as a customer, require. I don't particularly care whether shops I don't use and offer a poorer service than shops I do use go bust, to be honest.

Mn urban cluelessness is so adorable. A fluffy world where bank networks always function, small business absorbs fees, the dick brick is always charged and everything works perfectly.

Doesn't need Armageddon for these things to stop working. Why you can't fit a bit of cash in a designer purse is beyond me.

Up to you. Just don't blubber when things don't work - and dont start a business because you are not capable.

I only ever use Apple Pay. If a shop doesn't have a contactless card reader to use it, I don't shop there. Neither DH nor I carry cash any more at all. I live in central London though, so it's not a problem.

Mn urban cluelessness is so adorable.

Oh look: it's another member of the "small business sneering at prospective customers" club.

It's interesting to see small business owners coming out in force to tell their customers that they're idiots. But I'm the one with the money you claim to want, and you're the one running a company that can't deal with a 0.2% transaction charge. So which one of us is the idiot, eh?

No-one ever loses their phone in your lovely word either special and there are no nasty people to steal them and go on a spending spree.

I do daily banking as my job, i hate cash.
We are limited on what we can take because of

1. Insurance rules on what can be kept onsite overnight.
2. No bank near by so needs to drive there and limits on how much one person can take.

3.it cost 3.5 times ss much as a debit card transaction to pay in ie .7% against .2%

1. Money laundering rules
2. We are always running out of change

In this day and age there is really no need to pay bills in cash.

and dont start a business because you are not capable

Sorry to disappoint you specialsubject, but I never carry cash and I did manage to start and manage a business successfully. The 10p you keep in your purse might make you feel warm and proud, but if you were living my life you wouldn't bother either. My money is just as good as yours though.

I don't object to paying cash at the local PO/shop in the village our house is in, in Cornwall, as otherwise you have to drive to get a paper or a pint of milk. You get cash out at the PO counter, then spend it in the shop. There are a lot of older people in the village, so it helps them to have the shop there; and if cash only makes it viable for the owners, and keeps a village resource in place, then fine.

Where we live in Belgium is cash only for a couple of the pizzerias and the local frituur. The parking on the street is cash only as well, as are the local markets, the kip'n'spit van (poulet roti) etc, so it does still have a place.

and it hurts me less to simply not do business with those people rather than the faff of carrying cash.

Don't get how carrying a small amount of cash hurts you or is a faff. I mostly pay by card, but if I pop into Sainsbury's because I fancy some chocolate covered rice cakes I'm not paying for something that costs 50p with my card. It's more of a faff to check loads of small transactions on my statement than it is to keep £10 on me.

The only place I shop regularly with a minimum spend is a rather fantastic veg shop and I never mind buying a few extra things there.

It's more of a faff to check loads of small transactions on my statement than it is to keep £10 on me.

Why would I check small transactions on a statement? This is always at the root of these sorts of futile debates: people do a thing most people don't, and then use it as a lever to advance the argument that they are the only people being sensible.

I would pay 50p on Apple Pay, and a few seconds later up would pop a message saying "Sainsbury's £0.50". Unless it's a transaction for exactly 50p and I happen to have exactly 50p, it's quicker than cash (substantially under a second).

What more checking do you think I should do? I've never checked statements and even if occasionally there's a rogue transaction - and they'd necessarily need to be small, because I know roughly how much money I spend and therefore roughly what the balance should be - unless I cost my time at zero 30 years of checking transactions would be a lot of money. Similarly, like most people who aren't paranoid misers, I don't on the occasions I do use cash stand in front of the cashier and double-check the change.

Yep, you now get to feel superior at your statement-checking habit. Well done. How much money has it saved you over the years?

I mostly pay by card, but if I pop into Sainsbury's because I fancy some chocolate covered rice cakes I'm not paying for something that costs 50p with my card. It's more of a faff to check loads of small transactions on my statement than it is to keep £10 on me.

That's totally up to you - I find it less faff to pay for everything on card than to carry around cash constantly, especially if I'm going to be spending it in small dribs and drabs and so need to keep an eye on when it's time to get more out. I also find it harder to keep track of my money that way. But you do you, I'll do me - I just find it hard to see why some people seem to be made so angry by other people using cards for all their transactions.

I don't get annoyed at all. I understand there are costs involved to small businesses, and that is that.

There is usually a flat rate fee as well.

So if you spend £1, they get charged 20p plus a percentage. Which is better if you spend £5, they get charged 20p plus a percentage.

What with all the running costs, business rates, higher wholesale cost as they can't buy in bulk, staff costs etc etc - if they kept selling items on cards with no minimum, they wouldn't last very long.

This new thing about not being allowed to charge on transactions any more only hurts small businesses.

The larger businesses, get lower transaction rates and percentages anyway.

YABU

Can't really see the drama. You're NBU to only want to pay in a certain way, they're NBU not to want payment in a certain way. Provided you're both ok with the consequence, which in this case is you not doing business together, fine. Neither party owes the other anything. You just didn't find the arrangements mutually convenient, that's all.