To think that we should cut doctors a little slack sometimes...?

[Latitia]

Now I'm not talking about doctors who are outright rude and obstructive. I know they're out there and there will always be people in every profession who don't act in an appropriate manner.

I'm talking more about not shouting and making a fuss when the doc is 30 mins late (could have been dealing with a child who can't tell them what's wrong or an emergency), or because they don't agree with your 'google diagnosis' and refuse to prescribe the medication you think you need etc etc.

I was in the kitchen at work the other afternoon and some colleagues were making comments such as 'what do docs even do in between patients anyway, faff around?' Etc. I just find it all a bit mad. My father is a gp, and whilst he is clearly a very good one, the abuse he receives is heartbreaking. Bricks through his windows for not prescribing tramadol, screamed at because he's running 20 mins late due to an emergency, hate mail because he cancelled his surgery because his car was entirely snowed in and tailbacks of 30 miles. He gets this almost every day.

Do our doctors maybe deserve a little more than this? Or am I being too soft simply because he's my father and I hate to hear of people abusing him...

raindropsandsparkles you do realise you’re not the only person in the world who works though right..... you do seem to think you’re rather important .

raindropsandsparkles if your medical problem is not serious enough to warrant an hour away from work, perhaps you should consider whether it is serious enough to bother the GP with.

My feeling is that a doctor's time is more precious than most other people's work, and that patients should bend to fit them, not the other way round, within reason (childcare etc.) Just because there may be equity in terms of earnings, i'd say the contribution of doctors far outweighs their salary. I think a financial adviser, middle manager, accountant or estate agent etc. can be more malleable with their time than someone who is quite literally saving lives.

That being said, yeah, the old people getting the early appointments?hhhmmmm. Tend to agree :-)

Raindrops would hate the walk in for blood tests locally then - last time I went I sat at waited like everyone else but when having them done mentioned I was a full time carer for ds she told me to phone in advance next time and I would be seen as soon as I arrive rather than having to sit and wait.

I have been the reason for a 1hr 20 delay - I had a heart attack at the surgery, they called an ambulance and what with the doc dealing with me til they came, and then them dealing with me in the doctor's consulting room, it took up some time.

Sorry me being kept alive was such an inconvenience.

“Hang on a minute waves, so you are saying I'm right then. They won't be on call during the private sessions. So they have a choice about when they are on call. They chise to be on call during their NHS clinics but not their private ones. That doesn't smack of prioritising their patients and having no choice to me. That smacks of compressing all their NHS work to the detriment of the patient to free themselves up for their private work. How laudable“.

Raindrops; all I am saying is that a GP doing private work is not on call for the NHS. So working for two different employers /being self employed in two different ways. You can’t in this circumstance work for two employers at the same time; you would be working in breach of both contracts. If you were being paid to work in a shop, then went down the road to work in a different shop and got paid there too it wouldn’t make sense??

Training as a doctor in the UK doesn’t mean you have to prioritise NHS work. (It is a different debate about if they should) Your private GP could work privately all the time if they wanted. Your post doesn’t make sense. You use the services of a private GP then criticise that they work privately some of the time and don’t spend all of their time working for the NHS. It is up to the individual who they work for and when.

I only work 2.5 days a week. It usually works out around 32 hours a week. I do this because it is my choice not to work full time for the NHS.

I agree with Maisypops. I’ve had the first appointment of the day before and I’ve been called in 40 minutes late.

But yes, in general I agree with you.

Most scheduling delays can be avoided by allowing reasonable time for appointments plus five minutes. Unfortunately there is so much work plus paper work that even by squeezing in as many patients as possible the service is still insufficient. It wouldn't be as much of an issue if people stopped seeing doctors for silly things like colds and opted to go private when they can. I do. Haven't been to an NHS GP in over a year and a half. It's just not necessary.

BeyondThePage not one person here is suggesting that you were an inconvenience or that 99.9% of the delays are caused by similarly serious issues.

"All the partners at our practice do private clinics too in addition to their £83k. I wonder if the NHS work which is compressed is more interrupted because of things like the private slots?"

first sentence - where does the £83k come from?

second sentence - well of course it does! How on earth would it not?

I just discovered that one of the local GPs runs a priviate cosmetic procedures clinic on the side. If that's what he wants to do, that's his choice. But I'll take no lectures from him about the NHS.

They have to quote their average earnings on their websites.

not one person here is suggesting that you were an inconvenience or that 99.9% of the delays are caused by similarly serious issues.
Exactly.

My frustration comes from the lack of give and take.
Dr can run 20-30 mins behind before the day has really started - totally ok and it must hr because they are superheroes. Don't you dare mention that any problems with a system that crumbles if one urgent thing comes up because... doctors.

I call to say there's been a crash, I'm stuck in traffic and am stood in reception 2 mins into my allocated time - dr tells reception to cancel my appointment because I'm late and there's not time. (No 'oh we're a bit short so i might need to cut you off as you were late so i can get my next app', no ask what it was. Nope. Just tell reception to cancel my appointment and make me book another one).

Reality:
Doctors do a tough job with lots of pressure. The system is a bit crap and not ideal in places but they do their best. Most people will accept a delay and not say anything, but equally how hard is it to see someone for 8mins out of a 10 min appointment, you know common sense?

In all jobs with people there is give and take. If people act like arseholes then they can't be surprised if it makes people . That goes for doctors, teachers, social workers, anyone

“They have to quote their average earnings on their websites.”

Crikey. Are the figures fte or does a 2-day-a-week gp on £40K just put £40k?

“As this calculation is based on practice income, you then need to divide the total income by the number of GPs working in the practice. This is not just partners, but also includes salaried GPs and any locums working for longer than six months.

Include all GPs party to the contract for more than 6 months.
Include salaried or locum GPs who worked for more than 6 months.
Full time is regarded as 8 sessions per week.
The practice has to declare whether the GP is full-time (more than seven sessions) or part-time (less than seven sessions) and regardless of whether a GP is full-time or part-time, they are counted as one GP. The individual earnings of each GP are added together to make the total practice earnings and then this amount is divided by the total number of GPs. In the BMA example, a full-time GP partner (eight sessions) is earning £110,000, but the only figure that is published is the £56,250 which is so much lower as it has been divided by all the GPs in the practice, even the part-time salaried GP earning only £25,000 per annum.”

How bizarre is that?

This is bonkers!

“The required disclosure for the practice is shown below in bold text. However it should be noted that the prescribed method for calculating earnings is potentially misleading because it takes no account of how much time doctors spend working in the practice and should not be used to form any judgement about GP earnings, nor to make any comparison with any other practice.
All GP Practices are required to declare the mean earnings for GPs working to deliver NHS services to patients at each practice.
The average pay for GPs working in xxxxPractice in the last financial year was £47,831 before tax and National Insurance. This is for two full time GPs and two part time GPs who worked in the practice for more than six months.”

Can we have a “More or Less” report please?

I think this thread has just cemented my thoughts further regarding how stressful it must be to be a GP

What? Because people accept most do a great job but get frustrated when the system doesn't work well?

Welcome to the public sector. That's not specific to doctors.

Same happens in schools (most teachers do their best and a great job. Parents get that. Parents understandably get frustrated when the system isn't good and are usually polite even though it annoys them. Some parents are awfully rude. Some teachers are jobsworths who don't treat parents with respect. It's not a poor teachers moment if people rightly point out some systems are crap and some teachers are a pain.)

Sometimes I get a bit when i hear teachers, Drs and HCP act like they are the only ones who do difficult jobs and should be immune from any criticism.

RaindropsAndSparkles HCP don’t call people customers,it’s not the usual terminology. Customers is not a term Clinicians use.Not in private H.C or NHS

No safly they use "love" "dear" or "mum" all too often. Particularly nurses. May I respectfully suggest that a little customer service training would stop them from using reductive terms and affording the patient (or customer) a little more respect. I don't hear them referring to the doctor as "doc" or "gov". Why is that? Is it because it's acceptable for HCPs to address patients as subordinate to other human beings?

When one considers the amount of money the NHS spends on E&D it is not unreasonable to expect those who wlrk for it to embrace equality.

I prefer patient.

DuckAndPancakes your post made me happy for you but really sad for myself as it contrasts so sharply with an experience I had a few months ago. My physical and mental health collapsed suddenly and sharply, and I wound up at the gp surgery in a state of acute distress. The gp reacted with shock and disgust, didn't even meet my eye and seemed almost angry with me. He just phoned the mental health crises team, gave them my number and stuck me in a spare room to wait for them to phone me back. He didn't actually explain that my appointment was over leaving me even more confused and distressed.
It had taken almost all I had to get myself to that surgery and I can't explain how it felt having to walk out of there alone, having been given no help.

It does seem to be a particular issue at that surgery though, as prior to moving I was with the same practice for fifteen years and found them brilliant. They really listened, went the extra mile and always solicited my opinion on any treatments etc.

Unfortunately with the current lot, because of my recent mental health issues they are very dismissive of me now, even anything physical. I saw a different gp there yesterday about a particular issue, and the treatment I was hoping for was not something I'd dreamed up after a consultation with Doctor Google but in fact one of the recommended treatments on the NHS website.
Because this gp appeared not to have heard of it, she wanted to give me something else and seemed most put out when I explained why due to my medical history that would not be suitable for me personally, hence me requesting the other, safer one.

She also refused to make eye contact and examined me roughly.

My current surgery managed to add massively to my distress during one of the worst times of my life.

But as I said, it's not every practice. I'm guessing they are like any other workplace and some are toxic.

Maisy Pops

When they are 20 mins late and I'm the 2nd appointment of the day then I find myself being hmm to myself.

This happened at my clinic on Monday. 1st appointment ran 25 minutes over. I had to tell a young woman she had cancer, we aren't clear if it has spread and need to do further tests. She has a young family. Would you prefer I rushed her out without a really good explanation of what was going on/plans for her care from here and left her without the answers to all her questions in order to ensure that my clinic runs to time?

Yes, it could the Dr wasting time. Most likely not- I often get handed unexpected results/results which need to be acted on immediately during clinic, or need to return a call from a colleague about something urgent. Or get bleeped and have to respond. All of which can make me run a bit late. Believe me, running late is as much a headache for me as you- it means I get cranky patients, miss my break/run into my lunch/finish late. None of which I would chose to do so I can faff around.

I did a GP placement as a junior Dr and have GP friends. GPs also get calls from the hospital/have to manage urgent results (e.g. call from the lab), can be delayed by complicated patients/breaking bad news. Or elderly patients who can take a long time- often not as good historians/have more complex medical histories and very often take longer to examine (takes a while to remove clothing, get onto examining couch). Sometimes also need written instructions/explanation as they forget or want to show family. And then there are the patients who come in with multiple problems who haven't booked a double appointment but the GP doesn't feel they can safely send them away (e.g. the classic "oh and Dr I have been having chest pain as they go to leave the room happened to me more than once). Or they have had to admit someone and the admitting dr is slow to answer (as they are busy too).

I'm sorry if I sound grumpy, but yes OP I agree people should sometimes think a bit more before complaining about this sort of thing.

Oh and I was half an hour late being seen. Which is standard there. I never ever complain, I know how short a time ten minutes is. Nor have I ever been rude to a member of staff.

@maxthemartian this is my point. What you went through sounds truly awful, and you have every right to complain about it. You were upset about something that you had every right to be upset about.

You were also humble and accepted that they were running late for potentially good reason, thus not making an issue of this.

I have made complaints about doctors behaviour here and this post was never about medical treatment gone wrong (though it seems to have turned in to that). It was about cutting doctors slack for trivial issues such as running late, and minor delays in results etc.

Sorry to hear of your experience, it sounds truly awful. As someone who suffers from mental health issues you have my full sympathy.

@Latitia thank you very much for your kind words.
The good news for me is that I am moving in a couple of months so will have a different surgery then and I'm fairly confident it will be better!

@maxthemartian brilliant news. Good luck with your move and all the best.