IANBU!!! The Scottish Government have stolen the word female. It now includes males

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

This is a National Scandal

fairplayforwomen.com/scottish_stole_woman/

The Scottish government have redefined the legal meaning of the word "woman". It has now been expanded to include:
"A person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment...if, and only if, the person is living as a woman, and is proposing to undergo, is undergoing, or has undergone a process, or part of a process, for the purpose of becoming female

What fucking country do I live in?

So realistically, anyone who has short hair, jeans, a t shirt, and calls themself Jo

Or just wants a place as part of women's quota ...

Only on this site do you find people arguing both that women are oppressed on the basis of their gender, and that men are going to pretend to be women in order to access the advantages of being female and seeing NO contradiction in that position

The truth is transwomen face the same discrimination women face, and additional trans-specific discrimination as well. Where are these hordes of men who think the advantages of being female are so extensive and desirable, they're willing to accept the discrimination, oppression, violence, ridicule and prejudice that comes from being a trans woman...?

what's hidden in this debate is the fact that the Scottish government are making public boards 50/50 - that's really positive news for women

I looked in the legislation in the link and did not see a similar definition of "man". So this is already intrinsically unfair.

I'm a transwoman and have been abused and oppressed in many ways over the years (was trans for years, and had surgery, before I even got my GRC Over a decade ago). attacks have been verbal, physical and sexual, I also went through a 2yr period in which I was slandered horrifically within the local community and my son was attacked at school.
Those people were bigots and bullies.
They were awful, hated anybody who wasn't like them or people they knew and attacked me and others like me relentlessly. I believe that if in the "right" (wrong?) situation at the "right" time, I would probably be dead.

Does any woman here know what it is like to be attacked because of transitioning? Or losing out financially, losing family or friends, feeling so lonely you just want to curl up and die? Being hospitalised by a co worker, or someone you considered a very dear friend (both have happened to me) because you transitioned? Or to be fetishised, or thought to be "up for it" all the time (because we love being cat called and we're all just drag queens who want dick all the time!!! Obvs) Or being pursued relentlessly by gay men because they're ashamed to be gay but think they can have the best of both worlds they lose interest quickly when they realise you're post op

I think not. But then...
Periods
Pregnancy discrimination
Rape and sexual assault*
Domestic violence*
Casual/"minor" sexism and misogyny
Major sexism and misogyny.
Pay gaps.
Menopause
FGM
Irish ladies spending a fortune to get somewhere they can access safe abortion
Childbirth
Child rearing still largely seen as a "women's area".
Womens careers slow down when they have a baby whether they want to or not.
No one ever asks a bloke if they "miss their baby" when they return to work...
I could go on.

But those are just a handful of things I cant identify with. And while I can objectively say that's awful I'm so sorry can I say I experience those things or speak for women who have or will no I really can't.

Things marked * are things that while men can experience them to, are remarkably less against men and even less against men by women (I know the legal definition of rape requires a penis but assault by penetration and sexual assault don't).

What I'm trying to say is, when you remove the lines between woman and transwoman, you remove rights we could have and win.
You remove our struggles, our oppression, our hurt and pain. You take a big dump on it. Because how can I ever expdct to be able to report a hate crime against me, if I'm not legally trans anymore?
How can I ever access dedicated medical care, if I'm not trans anymore?
How can a counselling service for trans people ever be used or established if we all mold into one?
I might not have a penis anymore but I do have a prostate, how can I stay informed about looking after myself in ways women do not have to, if I'm no longer different from them? I don't have a cervix, what business do I have getting letters to remind me to have my smear?
We've heard it a thousand times - what women here are afraid of (and largely I agree with you!) but what about transpeople too? This isn't good for us either.
We're locking up women for stating facts. (When did that last happen...?)
We're calling them transphobic.
We're telling them it's not ok to talk or debate. (Where've we heard that before?)
We're telling them that they must sit down and shut up. (Where've we heard that before?)
We're telling them that talking about their biology, the main basis of their oppression, is transphobic.
I cant stand for that.

You may think you're being liberal for supporting this but really you're so open minded your brain has fallen out.

I'm sure it'll get Brought up at some point too, so I'll say it now.
I'm not offended by people being afraid of self ID.
i don't align myself with self ID'ers, TRA's, fetishists, or rapists. So as such, I'm not offended by people wanting to keep those out of segregated spaces.
Are you not aware that some men will...
get off on the fact they're flashing their penis at young girls/women and they can do nothing to stop it (because "I'm just getting changed!")
Use this as an opportunity to plant cameras (already happens but this will make it much easier).
Use this as an opportunity to fetishise women, and get off on their hurt?
Some men even get off on hearing women change their fucking tampons for goodness sake.
It will make things so much easier for rapists, paedophile s and predators.
And when they get caught, providing our rather flimsy justice system can stop being "transphobic" for 5 minutes and put them away, they can just identify their way into a prison with lots of women (aka, potential victims)? Which has already happened, by the way.
The worlds gone mad...

Ihatemyclients

To answer your question, these men are on social media threatening to beat and kill terfs and "truscum" and those social media users unfortunately share the same planet as the rest of us. They have also been known to reside within female prisons impregnating and raping inmates.
May I ask, what oppression do I face that women also face? I don't see either as better or worse, just different. I can see cat calling and random sexual harassment by people unaware of my trans status
But you clearly have a better idea than I... so do fill me in.

Just leave this here. Transwomen ARE women. Of course they are

transsingleblog.wordpress.com/2016/04/25/make-love-with-transgender-females/

Assigned
I am truly horrified and feel sickened by that article.

Punutbuttersquash, I am having this debate with a friend on Facebook at the moment. May I quote you? Your post is damn sight more articulate than anything I can come up with and as someone who has been through transition, you know a lot more about this than I do.

It's a fuck up by the people in power, not by men as a whole.

This, I think you'll find men are more likely to be "transphobic" than women on the whole. It's the "right on" politicians who're jumping on this bandwagon to appease the vocal minority.

It'll come back to bite them all in the arse one day....

Anyone who is unhappy with this may also like to consider signing this petition asking for consultation with women.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Bloody hell Peanut. That post was amazing. I applaud you for your writing and your superb insights.

@PeanutButterSquash I'm not going to argue with you about your own experiences. All I'll say is I've come to my views after reading a huge amount from other women (trans and cis) and I find the arguments made by others more compelling than yours.

I don't accept the argument that women are defined by the experiences or oppressions they may face. Every woman, cis or trans, has different experiences and we can never truly understand the experiences of another person. It isn't a meaningful way to draw divisions among people.

I also don't accept the argument that legal recognition of the gender of trans men and women will lead to an inability to provide effective healthcare. Humans are treated by doctors as individuals. A doctor isn't going to refuse to treat your prostate because you're a woman. That isn't how medicine has ever worked.

I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind - just letting you know why you haven't changed mine either.

A doctor isn't going to refuse to treat your prostate because you're a woman.

I wouldn't be entirely convinced. At 26 my sister's concerns about irregular bleeding were dismissed because "we wouldn't be looking for anything sinister in a woman of your age". Guess who was diagnosed with cervical cancer a year later? Doctors miss shit all. the. time.

Standing up and applauding Peanut here.
So sorry you've had to deal with so much shit.

The thing that the oppression faced by both women and transwomen has in common is so obvious.... men.

@wildduckhunt I'm so sorry, your poor sister. I hope she is ok?

I don't disagree with you at all - doctors definitely aren't perfect and do make mistakes. However, I don't think that's the same as suggesting that recognising the gender of trans women will mean they can no longer access appropriate healthcare. There's always the possibility that a doctor will make a mistake, but I don't think there is any possibility that doctors will say 'we can't treat you appropriately because you're a woman so you don't have a prostate' (for example). Doctors treat individual bodies in whatever form they come.

I also think there is a separate issue whereby women's health concerns aren't always taken seriously or properly investigated. The same is true of black people (and basically any group who aren't cis white males...). But I don't think gender recognition will make that any worse - it's a pervasive problem to do with seeing cis white men as 'normal bodies' and we need to challenge that attitude on every front anyway.

That article is basically just the writer saying, "sleep with meeeeeeee!"

But doctors call people for eg smear tests by computer. And I don't think the NHS system has boxes for sex and gender. So if you change your sex to your new gender, no you won't be able to access appropriate healthcare.

@Testingnamechange1 seems like something that could be resolved by a software update

That's a great post "PeanutButter*. Thanks for adding your voice.

I hear you Peanutbuttersquash.

Thanks @ihatemyclients. She's doing as well as she can between treatments, but we're unsure of long term prognosis for the moment.

I agree about there being a separate issue around women's health not being taken seriously all the time, as with black people (Serena Williams in particular doing really well in raising awareness of this). I do question how taking female/male as subjective will impact on individuals though. Will there be some people who so genuinely believe that by transitioning that they are in fact the opposite sex that they don't acknowledge their sex-specific symptoms of different conditions (e.g. heart attacks presenting differently in males and females, the female experience of ASD compared to the male experience), or in an emergency situation where someone "passes", how their healthcare could be delayed by the treating medics not having access to their medical history.

ihatemyclients

Can you stop reading things I've not said?
When did I say I'd be refused healthcare? I didn't. But I may in future end up receiving no correspondence that's relevant to my health (including the likes of prostate care + exams) but instead receiving letters inviting me for a cervical smear, er, why do I need one of those?! Which may lead to an increase in breast cancer or cervical cancer for transmen, as reminders and awareness (that will no longer be targeted towards them) have brought the rates down considerably and made prognosis so much better in recent years.

You've very conveniently glossed over every other point I have.
Including my ability to report a hate crime, identify and report transphobia (and by that I do not mean disagreeing with me!), access a safe counselling service or space, or create one. How can I do any of those things if I lose my status as a transperson and instead become "woman"? You wipe the very unique experiences of transwomen.
It's only really been the last.... 40 maybe 50 years, that anybody has had any idea about the concept of sex vs gender, maybe the last 5-6yrs that the majority are even vaguely aware of that.
Yet women across countries and culture have been oppressed for years, are you saying it's not sex, but gender, (something there hasn't been much idea of in history) that people are oppressed because of?
And what about oppression historical and at present, of women for solely biological things?
For being pregnant? Considered unclean for having their period? Having their entire worth tied up in a flimsy piece of skin called a hymen, while men can do what they like? We didn't stick men in Magdalene laundries did we, or stone them to death?? Nor did they face any kind of unpleasantries for unmarried sex, even if people knew. It's also reasonably widely believed that a woman having sex with 100 different men will become loose but 500x with one bloke is totes fine but somehow nobody believes that a mans dick will rot and fall off/expand to become a floppy sports sock/recoil into his bladder. Breastfeeding discrimination, and harsh/mean comments while doing so: or sexualised comments. Mind, I probably shouldn't say that now. It's called "chestfeeding"now as one transwoman managed to feed a baby with pus formed by quite extensive drug treatment. I've got four kids (via non biological means) not once did it occur to me to do that... who decides to pump a baby full of drugs (untested on babies may I add) to validate their own womanly feelings?!
Was that because women were the birthing sex, or was it because they wore pink and had long hair a-la gender norms?

As for not changing your opinion, unfortunately while some of my post is opinion a lot is fact too.
Do you disagree there are "transwomen" with penises, undergoing no medical treatment, in women's prisons raping and sometimes impregnating them??
I note there are many answers you could not provide, a very common thing on this subject.

I'll ask a few now...

Do you disagree that men will take advantage of it?

Do you disagree that there has been violent behaviour (including threats of rape, murder and women+transsexuals being hit in public by TRAs), as well as verbal attacks (cunt and scum come to mind) and general disorderly conduct?

Do you think it's okay that "posie Parker" is currently facing possible legal action, for saying that underage drugs and surgery (described as castration) is wrong?
I would agree it is a form of castration.
"The removal of testicles from a male animal or man" is the definition. That happens. It's not very nice, and was described as castration by my medical team while I underwent transition, it was used aptly to describe what would happen at each stage during a consultation I had. I am not offended. I believe it is the widely used medical term for that part of the procedure.

And almost-finally; do you deny that some TRA's, find the mention of women's biology (be it uterus, vulva or Fallopian tube) transphobic?

Another one, but anyone can answer this if they want.
Why is mumsnet considered transphobic? I've been here on and off for 9 years, ive had my own threads where people can chat with me and talk about my experiences if they want to (and I may have another soon).
Out of all that time, all of my discussions and comments on transphobia.
One poster has made a comment I considered over the line. One. Comment. That's it. It was a pretty gross comment, and I wasn't happy with it, but I was quite quickly defended and I believe it was removed by MNHQ.

Anybody is welcome to quote me; I really don't mind. Thank you for the comments

How is the experience of gender identity any more meaningful way to divide people than the experiences with our bodies? Surely our bodies deserve at least as much consideration in representation and legislation?

This "progressive" law, which misquotes the Equality Act 2010 for it's own purposes, is I think about correcting the experiences of women getting onto public boards. Why does dealing with the representation of women in public boards need to include trans women and not trans men or other female dysphoric people? How would it have been less inclusive or progressive for it to keep 'being female', however we identify? Trans men are also very underrepresented, deal with many of the issues PeanutButterSquash wrote out both of transitioning and being female, so why are female dysphoric people getting thrown under the bus by erasing our problems in employment? That seems rather anti-trans to me to erase so many, it is seems very anti-trans to me to keep erasing the impact dysphoria has on us by acting like people can just 'become' the other sex.

I hope its intended intent of getting more women on public boards sees more good happen. I find it odd how the excuse used for miswriting the Equality Act was 'so it benefits more than white middle class women' - just which trans women do they think are most likely to end up on public boards? I really don't see how anyone could say it is progressive for dysphoric people, however we identify, it isn't going to deal with the issues most of us are dealing with.

@PeanutButterSquash your posts are too long, which is why I've only responded to a few points that I consider particularly important.