To carry on this most excellent discussion that is only very occasionally touching on the subject of transmen?

[RatRolyPoly]

Thoroughly interesting, AIBU to keep it rolling?

@Datun

It's not very specific and doesn't tell you anything.

I'm not getting your point. We've agreed that 'castration' is the removal of the testes, we've agreed that there is more to the surgery we're discussing than the removal of testes.

We seemed to stumble on 'neo vagina' but we did agree that neither of us would call a prosthetic leg a neo leg.

You said it was because of the weight of trans opression and I agreed that there might be trans opression but that there hadn't been any here.

But we're back to a definition now..?

Just to answer the earlier question of me to comment on trans men.

The reason I have not is because I do not personally know any. I met a couple in Charing Cross over the years but just for casual chat in waiting rooms as in the 70s only one in ten cases were trans men.

I have never been part of any trans community or gone to meetings or rallies or as a result know lots of them of either gender.

Only one of my circle of friends is trans and I have not seen her in many years as it was impossible for me to travel when I was a full time carer.

But we are meeting up this summer happily.

Sorry I cannot really assist here.

Was this the post you wanted me to repost from the other thread in that PM?

GRS involves taking the tissue from the whole area 'down there' and keeping it alive and sensitive and using it skilfully to fashion a vagina, vulva and clitoris.

This is all done at the same time. A castration, per se, and on its own rarely happens.

So the vagina constructed is in many ways more 'real' than a breast implant or reconstructed breast. As in it uses tissue and nerves and blood supply of the person and usually results in full function afterwards other than lubrication. Though some of that happens to in the better surgeries.

With trans men a penis is created using grafts from the skin,. such as the arm. It usually requires a pump to create an erection though they are working on better options.

Lol @DodoPatrol

I'm only dropping in whilst my other half gets more

Sorry Jaycee, my post looked bizarre following on from yours. It was in response to something on the old thread.

@jaycee

God no, I'm desperately squeamish. I can't stand hearing about anything like that.

What I'd like to know if how anyone can marry up the concepts of women being born women and gender bring a social concept?

Sorry, screaming. You just asked me in your PM to repost my last post from the other thread into here and that was my last post in there at the time you asked.

We seemed to stumble on 'neo vagina' but we did agree that neither of us would call a prosthetic leg a neo leg.

Apologies for jumping in when I haven't read the earlier thread but prosthetic legs are prosthetic legs. We don't maintain a presense they're real. They have limitations, depending on how much you spend on making them and they cause problems occasionally like blisters. Calling a prosthetic leg a leg is inaccurate. It isn't a leg. And it's much more straightforward fashioning a prosthetic leg than it is something which resembles a vagina. You don't have to factor in sensation, for one.

A vagina is a complex organ. It can't be recreated out of male tissue. It isn't simply a hole.

RatRolyPoly - And subsequently, I don't believe there is any suggestion of changing the protected characteristic is there? I don't for a second see that that would happen - there is no reason to protect "gender identity" whatsoever as there's no evidence that anyone is discriminated against on the basis of it. And that's the whole point of the EA, to protect against discrimination.

Yes it's there in the trans equality report, along with the recommendation to remove the sex based exceptions in the EA for trans people who have a GRC - at the same time as changing the process of getting a GRC to self-ID.

After the report came out, Maria Miller launched a private members bill - A Bill to make gender identity a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010 in place of gender reassignment and to make associated provision for transgender and other persons; and for connected purposes. The bill ran out of time because of last year's snap election.

The tories appear to be committed to keeping the sex based exceptions in the EA but it would be incredibly short sighted to imagine they are therefore safe. Labour seem intent on enacting as much of the trans equality report as they can.

Most organisations are acting as if self-ID is already law, and the EA exceptions don't exist, thanks to helpful 'guidance' from mermaids, gires etc. It's currently not law though so can be challenged. Once it's law, we are fucked.

@jayceedove I think we are agreeing on just about everything. My point on the other thread was not to feel guilty that sometimes people are excluded from some things because sometimes it is appropriate.

As usual I am keen to go on about trans men. Still posted a passage (with permission) from a trans man.

In that passage the trans man was arguing that trans people (which really affects trans women) did not have an advantage in sports.

Apart from the fact this is untrue (size, strength, lung capacity etc and the poster was just going on testosterone or other hormones levels, I think); isn't it interesting that a trans man has a focus of something that could be said to advantage trans women?

There are various young people in my wider circle of family and friends who are trans or are exploring gender issues. They are all female. Almost all threads on here are about trans women. I wonder if this thread having that original focus on trans men was one reasons that previous thread survived and stayed mostly polite? Because it had some focus on trans men?

Trans men seem to be pretty disadvantaged in some ways. Despite joining the 'dominant' group in society. We hear a lot about violence against trans women but I think trans men can also be victims of violence both because they are trans and because they are seen as female too. They also seem in the 'trans community' to hold a curious position.

I know this is only one woman's choice (she now identifies as a woman, having been born female and spent four years as a trans boy then man). But I do think this is an interesting aspect of the debate.

"I didn’t know this then. I subscribed to an incredibly misogynistic set of beliefs for years. “DFAB privilege” was a common phrase in our community – “designated female at birth privilege.” It was accepted fact that being born female gave you a lifelong advantage over a male who transitioned. This included men who used transition only to mean using different pronouns on Tumblr and having an anime girl as their avatar. We believed that, as “dfabs,” we needed to shut up about our petty problems. We could never have it as hard as any “dmab women or non-binary people.” Everyone in the trans community agreed that it was our responsibility to uplift “dmab voices.” None of this seemed outrageous or strange to me; it felt pretty intuitive. Growing up under male domination is a grooming process that leaves many girls and women extremely vulnerable to manipulation."

4thwavenow.com/2016/04/27/shrinking-to-survive-a-former-trans-man-reports-on-life-inside-queer-youth-culture/

one woman's voice.

“ I wonder if this thread having that original focus on trans men was one reasons that previous thread survived and stayed mostly polite? Because it had some focus on trans men?”
Morning all.
It could well be.
if anyone has views on the solicitors’ awards issue (active thread) I would be grateful to read your views.

@thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth

I think that you ask is further proof of the development of this argument.

I can see why people would be frightened at the prospect of self id. I've seen examples of she it could go wrong, that people who aren't trans would pretend to be trans to access women's space.

However, there is a movement in ideology, to be uncomfortable with self id for Women Solicitor of the Year, you'd have to believe that A. men have some kind of natural advantage in being solicitors B. a man would pretend to be a woman in order to win this award and C. that the judging panel wouldn't have any suspicions.

I don't think that any of those assumptions are feminist.

If the focus has moved from being anti self ID to being a repeal the Gender Recognition Act 2004, a piece of legislation that's caused very few problems, people should be open about that.

Thanks.
However,The issue is that the Law Society says the award is now open to anyone who identifies as a woman.
I should have given you more info....

Can I join in please?

I've been reading everything you are saying with interest and I thought jaycee has come across really well on other threads.

I'm one of those who wants to be as understanding and inclusive as possible of trans men and women but is concerned that we are putting women and girls at risk from those who would use self id dishonestly.

I just tend to think that natal men are causing a big part of the problem here by not wanting their spaces to change at all. It's a great opportunity to 're look at the way we deal with sex segregated spaces and things like instigating single cubicles for everyone, doing something about men's prisons being so dangerous or anything that requires natal men to behave with decency towards trans women who might sometimes be in their spaces seems to be off the table. And making more places unisex but safe needs to be high on the agenda.

Interested in your discussions about anatomy and changes to the body but I have little knowledge to contribute.

I have also wondered where the trans men are in all this! They seem to be the most disadvantaged group among natal men, natal women and trans women too. They grew up with the disadvantages of being female and have added to that discrimination about being trans.

@thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth

However,The issue is that the Law Society says the award is now open to anyone who identifies as a woman.

I looked at the other thread before posting and my reply to you was exactly on that basis, 'anyone who identifies as a woman' means,

A. Someone born a woman
B. A trans woman, with a GRC, who is legal a woman because she's met the standards to obtain a GRC, i.e.medical and legal proof.
C. A man pretending to be a trans woman

Many people are uncomfortable with the thought of C. I'm trying to work out if B. is an issue and, if so, for whom?

@bleackteaplease

I have also wondered where the trans men are in all this!

One transmen posted in the previous thread. Additionally an invitation to post went out to a support group with over two thousand members and I made a couple of personal approaches to friends. Not one of them agreed.

Not many responded to the request and I'm sure that, in the majority, it's because they have better things to do but you can't ignore the fact that MN is seen as a very hostile place from the point of view of the trans community.

@blackteasplease welcome

still "anyone who identifies as a woman' means,

A. Someone born a woman" no that would be an actual woman!

Yes, B, is a trans woman, with a GRC, is indeed someone who is legally a woman because she's met the standards to obtain a GRC, i.e.medical and legal proof.

Hi Still, thanks for confirming.

I didn't follow what you said above about natural advantage.

As to the groups A,B, C.

I am ok A and B but not C

C - Self is is any man claiming to be woman.

(Do you ever stop and think how ridiculous that really is, that claiming to 've something would make it so, I'm no other area of life is this taken as red?)

@Stillscreaming

You use of the word "pretending" suggest you think they know they are faking it. I'd say some do know, some genuinely think being a woman is something 'up for grabs'.

It is not. A woman is an adult human female. Not a category you can randomly opt into.

Trans women with a GRC are included in the category 'women' for their benefit and they do not generally disadvantage women (some do, many, I am sure, do not).

But transexual women are an exception to a general biological (and currently social) rule.

"Many people are uncomfortable with the thought of C. I'm trying to work out if B. is an issue and, if so, for whom?"

I think B is only an issue in a small number of areas. Not relayed to the excellent posters here. I Don't want to go round on circles with you but am happy to say what I think of you want.

You use of the word "pretending" suggest you think they know they are faking it. I'd say some do know, some genuinely think being a woman is something 'up for grabs'.

Agree