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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To carry on this most excellent discussion that is only very occasionally touching on the subject of transmen?

97 replies

RatRolyPoly · 16/03/2018 20:27

Thoroughly interesting, AIBU to keep it rolling?

OP posts:
Stillscreaming · 17/03/2018 18:41

@thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth

What's swaying it for me is the testimonies by women "at the coal face" saying that idiotic students are lecturing them on how to be working class, how to help the poor, how to help women in shelters - that sort of thing.

It's irritating but nothing new, feminism as always been run by white, middle class women because they are the ones used to having their voices heard.

I remember feminist meeting in the 1980s with no women of colour and no working class mothers, it was usually just lesbians and women with husbands liberated enough to agree to babysit, with very long running arguments about inviting or not inviting the sex workers because we were deluded enough to think that's how they'd like to spend their night off.

Then someone invented intersectionality and we drew up a babysitting rota.

@ Datun

Maybe those kids aren't confused, maybe they are just overwhelmed by the gender binary. Maybe they need some of the constraints to loose up. If we could get rid of the idea that gender is intrinsically linked to one's anatomy, single sex bathrooms, ridged gender pronouns, stuff like that, maybe we'd give them a world they felt more comfortable in?

Datun · 17/03/2018 18:42

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth

If you're fed up with students doing that, you might want to get a glass of wine for this clip.

Students walk out when an evolutionary biologist mentions that men and women have different physical anatomy, like height.

I'm not sure if it's on this particular clip, but they called it 'brainwashing fascism'.

ILookedintheWater · 17/03/2018 18:47

Slight backward step to original post but I posted on that one that my eldest is FTM. So I thought I was fairly well attuned.

My office is at the edge of an open plan office where about 60 people sit. Right outside my door is a guy from another department who I say hello to but have never particularly taken notice of. Yesterday one of his team was standing talking to him and I noticed that they were wearing a binder. I thought of this thread. I wouldn't have looked twice at this lad in the street, and it was only because of my son that i even knew what a binder looks like through clothing. Then I noticed that the chap seated outside my door is a transman too. I have said good morning to him on the way past every day for over a year and never noticed. So where are all the transmen? Everywhere, just not as obvious as some of the transwomen.

Datun · 17/03/2018 18:49

. If we could get rid of the idea that gender is intrinsically linked to one's anatomy, single sex bathrooms, ridged gender pronouns, stuff like that, maybe we'd give them a world they felt more comfortable in?

Yes. It's a rebellion against rigid gender norms.

They're not confused about that. They're confused that it makes them the opposite sex.

Everything is gendered. Clothes, shoes, toys, rugs, curtains, cutlery sets, pencil cases, backpacks, duvets, photoframes, pushchairs, car seats.

Children are being relentlessly told to what their box IS. Which is unnatural. That's not what kids do. Hell, it's not what adults do.

And wanting to get out of that box is difficult. It makes them feel that they are wrong. The wrong sex for the stuff they like.

Young butch lesbians who fancy women, are under pressure to become men. Because they are bucking the gender system. They're doing it all 'wrong'.

I can totally understand how this might lead you to become, say non-binary. It's a statement. It says I don't want to be tied to 'gender'.

Gender is something that feminists have been trying to abolish since forever.

No one should be constrained by their choices, or society's expectations.

They're not the wrong sex. They are the right sex, who have preferences that society says are wrong.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 17/03/2018 18:53

“with very long running arguments about inviting or not inviting the sex workers because we were deluded enough to think that's how they'd like to spend their night off.”

Pmsl

I see you, and I raise you my Friends of the Earth meeting where we got completely derailed by the question of whether we could circulatethe minutes on paper.

Making a prat of yourself is a part of the journey of being a decent person I think.

Stillscreaming · 17/03/2018 19:22

Everything is gendered. Clothes, shoes, toys, rugs, curtains, cutlery sets, pencil cases, backpacks, duvets, photoframes, pushchairs, car seats.

Exactly, these things are gendered, not sexed. If we were to get rid of the idea that there are appropriate clothes for men and women. If everyone was accepting of that, no mocking no name calling, no accusing anyone of being 'a perv', ditto preferred pronouns and names that were used respectfully, with everyone being afforded dignity, then maybe, kids wouldn't be internalising this pink and blue world view.

Gender is something that feminists have been trying to abolish since forever.

Some are, some are really ridged about it. I was having a conversation with someone who didn't use any gendered pronouns the other day and it really made me think about how all of us just go along with all of these gendered concepts that we don't need.

Sadly, it's often those who are so reluctant for those children to have medical or social help to fit into the world who also won't afford them the kind of social change that might make them more comfortable.

Datun · 17/03/2018 19:30

I disagree about pronouns. They refer to your sex, not your gender. Gender is society's expectations and preferences. If you suddenly switch your pronoun to be that of the opposite sex, you are colluding in the idea that those expectations refer to that particular sex.

Italiangreyhound · 17/03/2018 19:31

still there is a brilliant diagram about to us and whether boys or girls can play with them . It is just coloured circles and is quite funny!

That's really interesting. @ILookedintheWater my friend has a child who is talking about binders etc. The mum I'd not on mumsnet so she Doran't mind me asking question s because I am in here a lot! Can I pm you? If it is not ok, just ignore me! Thanks.

EverlastingLove · 17/03/2018 19:44

I was married to a man (in the good old days we were TS ) he was straight and so was I , we didn't cause anyone any trouble , because we didn't tell anyone why should we it wasn't anyones business

I know about 800 guys with a past ,( ie they weren't born natal males )

some of the 800 are serving male police officers, some are solicitors , GP,s, Surgeons very few chose to be out , as I don't
unless you are suggesting we are to wear a badge ? didn't that happen somewhere in the 1930,s that didn't end well

as I have said I don't know any of these Activists , none of them were even born when I jumped and many of the men I know jumped through , various hoops to be who we are today
its none of anyone business , it was a long time ago

one of these activists contacted me some time ago , asking about a particular type of surgery as one of my specialist fields is Maxilo-Facial surgery I advised her as I would advise anyone else

there are far more important things in the world at the moment , like staff at DWP being paid bonuses to get people off PIP !
men and women with severe disabilitys,being forced into work so staff at DWP can get a bonus ! plus cuts to Maternity and G & O services

I understand the numbers presenting at GICs now are 50/50 , but suspect its people jumping on the bandwagon
my ex husband and I were born in the 1950,s we came to the conclusions we did independently of each other born the Internet didn't exist , after we had what we needed we just got on with our lives

we helped PFC financially from 1992 and were taken in by Blair and his lies !
along with one of my oldest friends Prof Stephen Whittle , the GRA was put together so it didn't take anything from anyone else

it is flawed, S22 is unworkable , its impossible virtually to bring a prosecution, believe me I have tried !
The EA act 2010 supersedes the GRA 2004 !

None of us oldies who have lived under the radar for 3 and 4 decades wanted self Id , the first I heard of it is when Stephen contacted me for my opinion , as I am reasonably respected in my own field , as he is in Equalities and Law

and if it interests anyone I call my foof a foof , nunny, or lady garden , my ex husband called his phallis his Dick , although the guys he played football with called him DD (they didn't know his or my past )

I looked after him through many proceedures his phallus was constructed in 1988 , revised through the 1990s
he is the only man in the UK as far as we know who served a prison sentence in male jails, as far as I am aware his current girlfriend doesn't know his past (that's his business not mine)

I have told one or two of my past , a one didn't believe me, one threw it back in my face once !

my parents disowned me decades ago , althought when I knocked on my parents door in 2004 , my dad didn't recognise me, my mum and I just sobbed in each others arms
I am in my 60,s now retired and live a quiet life , I wouldn't change anything I have done , apart from I should have been allowed to transition before I did at 17 , well officially at 18

I haven't anything else to add really

Stillscreaming · 17/03/2018 20:07

@ Datun

There is nothing innate about the meaning of words, babies pick up the ones spoken by those who care for them. The words we ascribe are gendered not sexed. The womb does not shout that it is a 'she'. You might ascribe 'she' to be about your sex, somebody else about their car, neither are wrong. If your going to question the worth of social constructs, things that are 'man made', you can't give weight to them at the same time.

Or, at a more theoretical level, surely it's better to use 'he' for a child who is more comfortable with 'he' than to tell that child that they must visit the Tavistock, before you'll make that concession?

Stillscreaming · 17/03/2018 20:13

Less not more!

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 17/03/2018 20:16

Will be back later -off for wine!

Stillscreaming · 17/03/2018 20:32

There are far more important things in the world at the moment , like staff at DWP being paid bonuses to get people off PIP !
men and women with severe disabilitys,being forced into work so staff at DWP can get a bonus ! plus cuts to Maternity and G & O services

This is so true @everlasting. It's not just the energy expanded, there is so much money going into this that could be spent to improve women's lives. Legal fighting funds, all (white) women candidate lists fighting funds etc. People can really dig deep over this, in a way they just don't seem to be able to for WA or the Rape Crisis Centre.

Datun · 17/03/2018 20:50

Stillscreaming

I'm not sure what you mean by words aren't innate. No, they're a constructed language which is ascribed meaning.

Sex is innate. Gender is socially constructed.

Society ascribes gender roles to the sexes. Unnecessarily and damagingly (for women).

Women were thought too feeble to educate, too dim to vote or hold public office, to be available for sex on demand, to be decorative, to not be responsible enough to manage their own money, to not have enough autonomy to order alcohol but themself, to be told to obey husbands, to be the property of someone else.

Feeble, irrational, irresponsible, uneducatable, decorative, no agency of their own.

That's gender.

Men are thought to be rational, logical, leaders, incisive, ambitious, strong, right.

That's gender.

Women have been disadvantaged, due to their biology, and gender roles are the means by which it's done.

Women, doing exactly the same job as men, were just thought 'lesser than'. Somehow, not worth the same money. That's gender. There is no innate reason for women to be paid less.

All a switching of pronouns does is, is try to claim the gender roles of the opposite sex.

It's back to front. We should stop assigning those gender roles, based on sex.

And, it doesn't really work anyway.

Transwomen known to be the first to do things, to be taking public office, to be on magazines, to be sought for their opinion and, in terms of TRAs, driving the agenda, changing laws and being deferred to, left right and centre and being listened to by everyone.

Which is typically male, not female. They are still a product of their socialisation by society.

Transmen meanwhile, are nowhere to be seen. They are largely famous for being the first 'man' to get pregnant, or being raped, despite being 'men'. Typically female.

Because women are not oppressed due to their gender, they are oppressed due to their sex, gender is the means.

Changing pronouns is a flawed mechanism to try and identify out of your sex.

Understandable. But unsuccessful.

Stillscreaming · 17/03/2018 21:28

Because women are not oppressed due to their gender, they are oppressed due to their sex, gender is the means.

Quite, which is why keeping such a strong and insistent hold on gendered language is a bad idea. If we want a less gendered society which, presumably we both do, we have to reflect the concept with the language we are willing to use.

We both know that language is a means of control but it can also be a means of comfort, welcome and revolution. We agree that no one's sex can be changed with words but the gendered aspects of life can be changed or subverted.

If you don't want to take the easy steps of being less hung up on gendered clothing, places and language, how do you propose to free us of the shackles of gender?

(When you say that something is flawed but you don't explain why you think that, neither I nor, anyone reading, is closer to understanding why you think that.)

EverlastingLove · 17/03/2018 22:06

Datun
The GRA 2004 was mostly wriiten and argued over by men ( most of whom were not natal males) sorry if that doesn't fit with what you may thiunk

the foremost authority on Equalities and Gender Law worldwide is Prof Stephen Thomas Whittle (a personal friend , I would trust him with my life )

The Dynamics of PFC was male led by Stephen and other men (not natal males)
The only woman involved was awarded an honour for the work she did ( I don't have her permission to name her so wont )

many of were bringing up our children and Grandchildren when most of the consultations went on after the UK government lost the Christine Goodwin and I ruling

Christine Goodwin was a dear friend, who sadly passed away , the I I do know who she is but cant name her I would get arrested

it seems to many of us older folks in the many hundreds

some women on here and elsewhere appear to want to have the GRA 2004 totally repealed ?

is that what you want ?

I wont argue with you , and neither will Stephen or any of us oldies living a quiet life

we are all adults , we were all having a reasonable discussion without any abuse

am sure many of the retired men and women watching this disscussion , would be eager to hear exactly what it is you want ?

Jayceedove · 17/03/2018 22:24

Everlasting thank you for posting that story, sad and inspiring at the same time.

Over on the other thread, which I have vacated again, I was told it was not true that there was a time when trans people were not demanding rights and that we always have been.

Until PFC I had never heard of that. And I was amazed to find that anyone was trying. Randall had told me flat out it would never happened. I believed him but it did not matter. When you have to transition they could lock you up in solitary forever and you still would. It is a necessity not a lifestyle choice.

That video with the students walking out just leaves me totally bemused. I have no idea what they are objecting to. Stated facts about differences between men and women. How do you dispute reality?

Datun, the thing is that the more I see, hear and read the more I am certain that transsexual has to be reclaimed as a term because it is more true than I ever realised.

I had just gone along with convention, as I thought it was, and used transgender instead. But I have started differentiating again because I now do think we are all getting het up discussing two entirely different things.

I cannot equate to all this gender fluid boys like this, girls like that, I identify as this or that. It does not match my experience.

This is why when I have been asked to explain how I knew my 'gender identity' was 'female' and I couldn't it created problems.

I thought it must just be innate and you don't notice the mismatch unless it exists, which in 99.9% of cases it doesn't.

But I think now it is that these questions assume gender identity is the anomaly and someone with that problem who understands identifying could explain. I cannot because it wasn't about that.

My distress was based very much on sex and anatomy. I knew my body was male but felt desperately that it was not meant to be. As if somehow at birth my self was swapped with another body by accident. I don't actually think that happened, of course. But it is closer to what it was like.

You just know your body is wrong and you strive to put it right. Not at all because you want to play with dolls or like pink. I did lots of things in childhood and was never stopped by my parents (because they had been alerted early by my primary school teacher and they gave me scope to be me and go with the flow).

So I played with anything and anyone and some of it I liked and some I didn't. But it was never focused through the lens of boy or girl things.

The focus was to readjust the body pretty much from the off and at first you say you ARE a girl, because that belief is inside you, then by around 8 or 9 the reality sinks in and you know that your body isn't but you feel it should be, so you start saying you WANT to be. And the entire focus is that quest to correct body not to express in some way a gender identity through whatever body you have.

This is presumably why I am struggling as much as many of you to grasp gender fluid, identifying as something or all these multiple terms and names.

For me it has always been very simple. There are men and women. We are different. I know biologically what I was. But also knew somehow profoundly that this was a mistake. And correcting that mistake was the final destination. I knew this was never going to be actually possible - I understood the realities. But it was the absolute purpose to bridge that gap to the maximum degree possible.

So, transsexual is the right term for anyone like me. As it is about transiting from one sex to the other as far as science allows. It is never enough, as I recognise, but it is a very traditional journey that challenges in no way the concept of men or women or any third gender or flavour of gender.

I am baffled by those because to me they are just words and concepts and I am like everyone a man or a woman but simply think biologically the wrong one.

I had never really thought it through this clearly. Nor do I have the foggiest how or why it happens in a few cases. Just that it does and it is trans - sexual - not - trans - gender.

Transgender people obviously exist and are in some numbers and we have to find ways to deal with their needs. But that really seems to be a baffling other reality to me and the challenges and changes they wish to bring about to definitions and spaces goes over my head much like it does with you, because this is something unlike what I experience.

Does not solve anything but the clarity brought to me by reading around this site over the past week or two has been helpful in giving me this insight.

Datun · 17/03/2018 22:28

Quite, which is why keeping such a strong and insistent hold on gendered language is a bad idea.

Pronouns are not gendered language. They are sexed language. They are entirely neutral. They are a statement of fact. Immutable. They refer to your sex.

Your sex says nothing. Other than a description of biological reproductive function. That's it. That's all it is.

That's feminism.

Claiming you can change how society treats you, by opting into another sex, reinforces gender roles, gender stereotypes.

All you're doing is attempting to swap one set of roles for another.

Breaking down gender stereotype doesn't involve changing sex to swap them.

If a boy wants to do all the things associated with being a girl, he doesn't have to change sex. He can do all those things and remain male. That is breaking down gender stereotypes. Because it is telling the world that they are not assigned to a particular sex.

We need to get away from the idea that certain stereotypes are associated with a certain sex. Not change our sex so we can inhabit those stereotypes.

EverlastingLove

^that's what I want.

Stillscreaming · 17/03/2018 22:53

If a boy wants to do all the things associated with being a girl, he doesn't have to change sex. He can do all those things and remain male. That is breaking down gender stereotypes. Because it is telling the world that they are not assigned to a particular sex.

I've taken your post out of turn because I thought I'd start with the bit we agree on. I don't want things assigned to a particular sex, I've suggested the de gendering of clothing, spaces and language. When you turned down that idea, I asked how you suggested breaking down gender stereotypes, without taking these simple steps, You've just repeated that you don't want them.

We at absolute agreement on gender stereotypes being damaging. I think we'd be hard pushed to find anyone to disagree with us. What next? How do you plan to take down these stereotypes?

What do you want?

They are sexed language.

No, language can't be sexed, sex is a biological concept. You even say so yourself, later in your post:

Your sex says nothing. Other than a description of biological reproductive function. That's it. That's all it is.

That's feminism

No, your's is a part of the big old feminist umbrella. It's a small part but I don't think you need numbers to make an argument valid, just a valid argument.

We need to get away from the idea that certain stereotypes are associated with a certain sex.

I agree, I think everyone should be free to do what they want and be accepted how they are. How do you propose achieving this aim?

Stillscreaming · 17/03/2018 22:56

*EverlastingLove

^that's what I want.*

Steady, that looks like a come on. 😀

EverlastingLove · 17/03/2018 23:02

Well take your pick with me I was born intersex I didn't chose that that cant be altered and neither can my 5ft 4 inches in height although I was tiny through school

I was born with one Ovary , which in my father wisdom told the Drs to remove it I had been living as a girl from birth to age 4

they cut my hair and made me pretend to be a boy , everytime I claimed I was a girl I was savagely beaten, my doll was thrown on the fire all my toys were taken off me

I kept quiet for the years I was made to live as a boy , and started being abused by men age 16/17 in the 1970,s in return for Stilbesterol my family GP refused to help , I saw John Randell at CX in 1976

had my gender put right after being mucked about with as a kid in the late 50,s and 60,s

hope this is what you want Datun ?

I will pass your wish list on to Stephen Whittle who I am sure will see it shown to the people in authority

it might be a good idea to write to your MP and Lobby your MP with your thoughts , and wish list
I am just an elderly retired lady living a quiet life (whatever you think of me )

after reading your piece I have decided to retire fully from the campaign of cuts to G & O and maternity services , and cuts to NHS services for all men and women

will leave it to someone who you seem to think would be better suited than someone like me

best wishes

Stillscreaming · 17/03/2018 23:11

@jaycee

That video with the students walking out just leaves me totally bemused. I have no idea what they are objecting to. Stated facts about differences between men and women. How do you dispute reality?

It's weird, isn't it? On both of the extreamist ends of this argument, it's like they've been drinking the Cool Aid; no logic, no independant thought, just mindless repetition of dogma.

I blame it on the Internet. In the olden days we all had to interact with people who thought different things and had different experiences and had to, some how, assimilate that into our understand of the world.

Now people, can find spaces where everyone has exactly the same world view as their own. I can see that it must be comforting and reassuring but I don't think that it does much to help them develop.

The people in the video are very young, hopefully, they will leave college, go out into the world, develop a wider viewpoint and find better hairdressers.

EverlastingLove · 17/03/2018 23:11

I have passed your wish list on to Stephen , he may wish to know your real name and details
I have no desire to know them , you have totally upset and humiliated me
I am in bits here

thanks for that

PencilsInSpace · 17/03/2018 23:50

None of us oldies who have lived under the radar for 3 and 4 decades wanted self Id

Well then FFS do something about it!

JFC sort yourselves out! We're not your mum. We're not here to soothe your feelings because you're upset. We're not here to sort out where you all piss. We're not here to approve or disapprove of whatever word you choose to call your neovagina. We're not here to gaze in awe at you knowing 800 transmen including Stephen Whittle. We're not here to listen to your memoirs, fascinating though they may be in any other context.

We are here to do everything we can to secure women and girls' safety, dignity and privacy.

We are here to assert our right to name ourselves as a group and to name our oppressors.

We are here to safeguard the rights, health, fertility and wellbeing of our children.

We are here to assert our right to meet and organise with other women and without men when we choose, even if a man doesn't like it. Even if the man who doesn't like it expresses femininity better than we do.

EverlastingLove · 18/03/2018 00:07

IAs the thread is about the visability of Trans men I don't get your gist
I haven't asked for anyones sympathy or anyone to sooth my upset

I do expect to be treated with some civility , and no agressiove behaviour , which I understand isn't in the spirit of mumsnet

I was always told once someone started using expletives they had lost the argument
we have as a group of well contected people made our feelings known to this government politely like we have always done ,with the Blair /Brown Government

not deliberately abuse elderly retired intersex people who devoted their lives to service within the NHS because they don't fit with any hypothesis you can invisage

or what you want ! well life is like that , you don't always get what you want , unless you live on fantasy Island

take care