To not understand why fur and veal are so much worse than leather and beef?

[Coconuthusk]

This is a genuine question.
This isn't about whether we should all be vegan, it is a question for those who eat meat. Please be respectful. X
I genuingely don't understand why leather is acceptable and fur generally isn't. Animals bred abroad for leather can have pretty awful lives too.
Similarly, fois gras is pretty miserable for geese, eggs can cause real misery (not so much in the UK now thankfully), and obtaining feathers can be horrific so why is veal considered so much worse by some?
For the record, I eat meat and wear leather although I do understand why people choose to be vegetarian and vegan.

From my understanding it would be more accurate to say meat is a byproduct of the leather industry then the other way around. The hides have much more monetary value then the rest of the animal.

That made no sense to me, so I googled. I found a US department of Agriculture document that (if I've understood it correctly) says a cow hide was worth about 95 dollars, in 2015.

I would imagine that's a very tiny fraction of the value of cow at slaughter.

www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/ByProduct%20DropValue%28Steer%29Overview.pdf

Okay thanks before ordering veal I will check what kind it is.

I looked for a down coat for a while before I realised how the down is harvested in some cases. I haven't looked since and won't. I'd rather be a few degrees colder than encourage the unethical end of the down market but I am surprised it hasn't garnered more publicity.

it's the levels of cruelty involved, isn't it, most people are happy to eat meat as long as they're reasonably sure that good welfare standards were in place.

You can't be sure of that with fur. If we could be sure of that, then I'm not sure that it IS any different to leather/meat eating.

Surely the lesson, aside from people for whom eating or killing any animal seems morally wrong, is that the provenance matters.

A cow's worth of leather probably costs a lot more than 95 dollars, but a lot of the additional price will be due to the cost of tanning, I guess.

I have seen some videos of animals being skinned alive.

They have a probe popped up their bottom and one in their mouth to electrocute them. Sometimes it only stuns and they come round after their fur has been removed and die very horribly

I've also seen a turtle being cut out of its shell whilst it was alive too.

Both videos in college

I find the whole issue of animal welfare a very difficult one morally.

Do I think it is wrong, per se, to eat animals? No, I don't. We are omnivores.

Do I think the way we rear and treat animals for meat is wrong? Yes, it's awful. Do I think most people should eat less meat? Yes, they should.

The dairy industry is horrific however when I stopped eating dairy (for 10 weeks) I felt absolutely awful despite still having loads of calcium etc. For that reason I do still eat dairy but I try to have a couple of days a week where I don't.

Same with meat - I don't eat meat most days. What I do eat is ethically reared.

I don't eat egg much but when I do I get them from my neighbour who has hens. If we eventually move somewhere with a garden I'd consider getting my own hens.

There are obviously problems with all the above but surely it's better to do a little bit than not to do anything? If everyone had one day per week they were vegan or even just veggie would that not have a massive environmental impact?

I don't wear leather or fur though. And I don't eat veal or lamb, mainly because I hate the taste.

Mrs Pepperpot - some people have an issue with wool, particularly Merino wool due to 'mulesing'. Merino sheep have traditionally had very soft and wrinkled skin, which makes them a prime target for flies, especially in very hot countries (like Australia). So the sheep are 'mulesed' which involves cutting away the skin on the back end of the sheep to prevent poo getting lodged in skin folds and attracting flies.

Sheep in the UK are not 'mulesed' so if you bought UK wool you would not be contributing to this. Also, there are breeders who are working on breeding the wrinkly skin out of the Merino breed, so even buying Merino is not necessarily unethical.

As I understand it, vegans believe that we have no right to use anything that once belonged to an animal, so will not use wool for those reasons.

They don't skinanimals alive for fur.

What they do do is kill them by inserting electrolodes down their throats and up their anus. It's a painful and inefficient way to kill them but results in the least damage to the fur.

It's a bit like animals being harmed in cosmetics testing - in personally accepting of animals being harmed to develop cures for diseases, but not to give me longer eyelashes. Similarly I'm ok with animals being humanely slaughtered- and I do think the standard for that is at least one step higher than the norm - but the way veal is produced never seems to reach that level.

I can't see how there is one. I am a vegetarian and I don't buy fur / leather / other animal products. I don't think there is any moral difference between leather and fur.

That said, I think any reduction by people in their consumption of animals or their skins / fur is a good thing so I would never berate someone who refused to wear fur but did wear leather. Some reduction is better than none, and it's much better to recognise the effort people do make to reduce their use of animal products and encourage them to do more than criticising them for not doing enough.

I'm well aware that vegans could criticise me for the harm and suffering I cause by eating dairy / eggs etc, so I think the best thing is to recognise the steps people do take rather than criticise them for the ones they don't.

Agree with pp. If you’re going to eat meat, buy British or Irish, ideally from your local butcher or farm shop. Our meat is produced to some of the very highest welfare standards anywhere in the world.

There was a lot of evidence on a previous MN thread (don't remember what is was called), that videos of animals being skinned alive were done by PETA to make their arguments more dramatic.

I have seen videos which show animals being skinned alive for their fur. I thought it was well known that this happens, I know some don't believe it because how could humans really be that cruel? But I have seen it for myself in a video recorded by a person I know and trust. That is why I have issue with the fur trade.

Other than that, I don't have issue with veal. I won't eat fois gras but that's my own personal opinion and believes and I don't have a go at one who does.

Because most leather is a byproduct of the meat industry therefore the animals weren’t killed purely for their skin. Also many animals killed for fur wind up close to extinction as a result.

Veal I believe is purely because it’s a baby animal and people regard babies as cute and helpless (in reality all animals are sort of helpless against man but I shan’t preach...)

I do use leather and eat British rose standard veal. I wouldn't wear fur because of the controversy and because I don't think there is a justification for slaughtering an animal just for clothing in the way there is for consumption of meat. I also try to be aware of welfare standards and most fur farms are not at a high standard.

We don't need to kill animals just so we can wear their fur as a fashion statement. Many species have been driven to the brink of extinction because of this, not only for fur, but exotic birds for their feathers.

We don't need to take an animal from its mother at birth, keep it in a crate and force-feed it milk and milk pellets for six months before killing it just so the meat is nice and white and tender.

Leather is a by-product of other industries (which you may or may not agree with) and would be thrown away otherwise.
At least beef cattle get fresh air, grass and a life outdoors before their time comes.

Is there some way to be able to work out if you can eat veal on the basis that otherwise its going to waste (due to dairy production) or if its the other way around and you should be drinking milk because of the veal industry?

My feeling in that case is that drinking less dairy in exchange for eating a bit of veal makes sense...and not at all the other way around. But with leather and beef I'm now confused...

It’s known that places in China have awful practices when it comes to fur, but to hold that up as the industry standard is a bit far. I’ve seen some lovely fur items made from pelts that were from animals hunted by First Nation traders in Canada.

PETA is unlikely to agree with me on this, but I think fur can be ethical, if it comes from animals who have been humanely killed as part of a sustainable population management (like venison!).

Wrt leather, it’s my understanding that there’s not actually much overlap between beef cattle and cattle bred for leather? And I think the same is true with the dairy industry to a lesser extent - cows for dairy and cows for beef can be very different breeds! That’s why you see beef from Herefords and Aberdeen Angus cattle, but your milk is from Jersey, Guernsey, and Fresian cows. You wouldn’t keep Jersey cows for meat I don’t think? Happy to be told I’m wrong though.

Just like any animal product, fine if proper husbandry standards used.

Veal - well dont like the taste but it’s a no from me to veal crating but an ok if it’s reared properly

Leather - no issues but I want the animal to have been treated humanely and the tanning and dyeing to be done in an eco friendly way ( some is done in a very environmentally damaging way at great cost to tanners in the third world.)

Wool - no issues with UK wool. Worked on sheep farms, sheep treated well.

Fur. Needs to come from accredited sources. Mine ( fur lined parka hood in a country where it’s -30 and below in winter, plus gloves) comes from someone who hunts up north and pest control coyote kills in Canada. A lot of the fur from China is poorly raised and cat/rabbit, if that’s an issue don’t buy Chinese fur.

What’s critical is how its obtained and how the animal died and lived and how the item is processed. Just like meat.

It's not just killing animals for their fur, but the way they are kept beforehand. For example creatures like mink, which are quite territorial and like to swim in the wild, being kept in small dry cages with hundreds of other mink, where the smell of their waste and faeces probably stresses them out a lot.

I can't believe that every single animal that is killed for its fur is neatly despatched by being stunned with a 100% success rate. If it's not done properly, an animal may well be alive and suffering whilst being skinned. That's the sort of report I've seen, rather than deliberately keeping the animal alive because it somehow improves the quality of the fur, and it made me feel very sick. Of course the same thing can happen in meat slaughterhouses too. But as fur is such a luxury item, and the animals are more fluffeh, I think there is a tendency to see it as being worse.

No - you wouldn't eat a jersey cow (well, you could, but they are not bred to produce the large amounts of meat that a beef cow is - very different shaped breeds). Most (?) UK dairy farmers will cross-breed dairy cows to beef bulls so that the resulting calves could be used as beef.

Veal - definitely a minority, niche market. And is response to several previous comments, rearing calves in dark crates is horrific. And that is why it is illegal to do so in the UK. Rose veal refers specifically to uncrated veal, fed a normal diet - this causes the meat to take on the darker colour (hence the name) than the crated white veal you can buy on the continent.

Thetemptationofchocolate I hadn't heard of mulesing - that explains it. I have "dagged" sheep which involves the very specific shearing of a sheep's rear to avoid the fly/maggot issue - but not invasive and physically damaging like that. More reasons to be picky about provenance!

I don't think there is any more of an ethical issue with fur than any other animal product, as long as you buy from accredited sources. If you use animal products at all and object to fur you are a hypocrite. PETA peddle lies and are often behind the brutal videos you see online, they set them up to further their own agenda. They also believe having pets is akin to treating them as slaves, and have acquired rescue shelters and euthanised hundreds of animals to 'save' them from the fate of being a pet. Not people that I would want to be getting my information from.

I've met a family who run a fur farm in Greece, and as someone who liked the fur coats I had inherited I wanted to know more about new fur and the ethics in buying it, and they were happy to talk to me about their farm and the industry. Animals are never skinned alive, as a pp said it is hard enough to skin a dead animal, let alone one that was still alive and kicking. Mink from farms in the EU are kept in their own cages from a few weeks old, they are killed by going into a machine brought to their cages with a tunnel and are gassed. It's a much much more humane death than animals raised for meat who have to be transported to an abattoir and smell the blood of their peers before they are slaughtered. Some fur farms also use the carcasses as a natural fertiliser or for new eco fuels, the bodies are not wasted after the most valuable part has been removed. If you buy from Saga accredited sources in the EU then the highest standards of welfare are kept to, buying from First Nation people from Canada is also an option and these people rely on fur for their livelihoods with very little other source of income. The fur you buy from them has led a totally natural life in the wild, and their populations are managed. I wouldn't buy fur from China because of their appalling human rights issues and so I wouldn't hold out much hope for their treatment of animals.

Faux fur will never last as long as real fur, they look shit after a few years, whereas I have real furs that are older than my DM and still look as good as new. Faux fur is made of plastic and will take hundreds of years to biodegrade, every time you wash a faux fur item tiny particles of plastic are released into our water system, causing a great deal of harm. Faux fur is not a great alternative imo.

There's no difference other than people have their own comfort levels and are hypocrites.

I personally think rose veal (male diary) is actually kinder than them just being shot at birth