To not understand why fur and veal are so much worse than leather and beef?

[Coconuthusk]

This is a genuine question.
This isn't about whether we should all be vegan, it is a question for those who eat meat. Please be respectful. X
I genuingely don't understand why leather is acceptable and fur generally isn't. Animals bred abroad for leather can have pretty awful lives too.
Similarly, fois gras is pretty miserable for geese, eggs can cause real misery (not so much in the UK now thankfully), and obtaining feathers can be horrific so why is veal considered so much worse by some?
For the record, I eat meat and wear leather although I do understand why people choose to be vegetarian and vegan.

I would have no issue with fur if the animal was being used for meat as well. For me, this is the contrast, rearing animals just for their skin when there are plenty of man made materials.

I have no issue with veal reared under EU welfare standards. Hopefully, these won't retrograde under Brexit. I wouldn't eat veal unless I was confident it has been ethically reared. Veal calves are older than most other species at the time of slaughter, so if you refuse to eat veal because 'cute, baby animals', then you should also refuse to eat lamb, chicken and pork IMO.

'Good', pale and tender veal comes calves crated in dark surroundings who are fed nothing but milk or milk replacer.

As a result of never having any solid food, they suffer from their digestive systems never developing properly; they become weak and anaemic, often collapsing in their crates.

Pink veal comes from normally fed calves, but aficionados don't rate the meat.

Fur comes from animals which have often been skinned while still alive or which have been crated and overfed to increase the amount of skin (and, therefore fur).

Most leather is a by-product of the dairy industry.

Thanks coconuthusk - I'll investigate. I've never seen wool used as a filling. (True that wool can be a minefield, though).

The only reason I can think of is because people are hypocrites

basically. And if someone doesn't want a baby cow killed, they shouldn't have any cheese with rennet either. Most posh cheeses need a newborn to get killed.

Leather is a by-product that's a myth.

Yep, British rose veal, if anything, is quite ethical as far as meat production goes as it's largely the male dairy calves that would otherwise be slaughtered soon after birth.

It's also delicious.

I’m an omnivore.

Leather is a by-product of the meat industry. Beef cattle are raised and slaughtered humanely in the UK & Ireland, with very few welfare concerns. Fur animals are farmed specifically for their pelts, so it isn’t a by-product.

Veal is a by-product of the dairy industry (male calves of dairy breeds). British rose veal is a high-welfare product which I’m happy to eat. Veal is produced in crates in other countries so I don’t eat that.

Don't see the hoo-ha about veal but everyone is stuffing their faces with lamb?

What reason would they use to skin an animal alive? I just don’t see that being true outside of countries like China

From my understanding it would be more accurate to say meat is a byproduct of the leather industry then the other way around. The hides have much more monetary value then the rest of the animal.

Silky - I'm not sure if it's intentional for the fur product so much as "not a fuck given" if the animal is still alive and suffering, IYSWIM?

Someone who knows more than me might have a better/more accurate view.

Agree with pp: UK reared rose veal is - if you are a meat-eater & milk drinker (as I am) - an ethical choice in terms of not seeing very young male calves killed at birth for no purpose. With rose veal (esp if you go organic etc) the animal does have a good standard of life, and SOME life at least. Similarly leather (although I guess you'd want to be picky about country of origin there too). Fur is a vanity thing though hence the problems there.

Not sure why wool a problem? Everywhere I have worked (very small UK flocks - more artisan producer than business) the sheep have been treated well and are not killed/harmed for their wool - although again I guess the key is to be picky about where it comes from as some producers/countries have less stringent welfare standards?

I actually had no idea that veal was still not a result of calves spending their lives in dark crates. I am older so remember the campaigns about this. I eat meat that is reared outdoors only. Happy to eat meat, but I care about how animals are treated when they are alive.

It is a load of bullshit that the fur trade skins creatures alive. They skin for the pelt, they want to maximise the size of the pelt as they are worth more money. Skinning an animal alive would shred the pelt and it would be worthless. It is a myth that it happens regularly. YES- there are videos of animals being skinned alive on fur farms but there is also proof that a lot of these videos are linked back to the animal rights people themselves to incite anger.

topcatsroar.wordpress.com/2013/10/19/animal-welfare-v-animal-rights-skinned-alive-is-a-myth/

shanghaiist.com/2013/08/27/peta_still_pushing_the_idea_that_animals_are_skinned_alive_in_china.php

As somebody that used to keep a pet raccoon, I can promise you 100% that it would be almost impossible to skin an animal without the person receiving horrific bites. It woule be a totallly inefectual way to earn a money from fur.

I have no issues with veal (or any meat we eat in the UK)

I believe the slaughter process in this country to be humine and the animal doesn't suffer (this is from watching that 'catch it, kill it, cook it' and other documentaries where they investigate different abattoirs and the journey from farm to plate)

Having said that, if this was about dogs or cats. Jesus. I'd be in uproar. I have a furbaby dog and a cat and am completely in love with them. I could never eat a 'pet' althoigh I did try rabbit once. Never owned a rabbit though

I suppose that makes me a massive hypocrite because I'll happily eat and allow other animals (cows, lambs, chicken even as babies) be slaughtered and I'll gobble them up!

Fur, I don't know enough about to comment and have never owned any fur too poor!

Well, leather is a byproduct and fur is taken by skinning the animal alive to preserve the quality (supposedly ). Have researched this previously and lived to regret it deeply - will never forget seeing a video of a skinned animal trying to stand up when it was flung on a pile of other skinned, partially dead animals.
It is, quite possibly, the cruellest industry still in existence.

Don’t know about veal. I don’t eat much meat (only fish and the occasional chicken) so it’s not something I’ve ever needed to look into.

www.truthaboutfur.com/blog/5-reasons-animals-are-not-skinned-alive/

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinning

With fur the animals are often not dead when skinned. Especially because a lot of our fur comes from China which has very different ethical standards to the UK. Also the animals used for fur are often only used for fur and the rest of the animal is 'wasted'.

With veal to get 'proper' white meal veal the calf must be kept in a crate so it can't move (as the muscle development impairs flavour) and only fed a very limited diet of milk meaning they have severe muscle weakness and health issues. There are obvious ethical issues with this.

I think it feels a bit like fur and veal are unnecessary luxuries whereas leather and beef are useful staples. Coupled with the production of fur and veal being historically more cruel.

@fannyfelcher - cross-post! Off to read your links now.

I don't wear fur but I know enough about hunting and animal behaviour to have always found the claim that "All animals used for the fur industry are skinned alive." to be Extremely suspicious.

Cruelty issues aside it would be both impractical and dangerous to skin animals alive. It's not that I don't believe it does happen in some places but as a wide practice it wouldn't be smart business to do so and is illegal in the US and Europe.

What MrsPepperpot said - rose veal is an ethical choice.

I'd go so far as to say that if you drink milk, you have a duty to find and consume rose veal. The alternative is for the male dairy calves to be shot as newborns, or exported to somewhere where welfare standards for veal are lower than they are here. Dairy cows need to have a calf every year in order to continue lactating, and they are no use as regular beef cattle because they don't gain weight in the same way.

I warn you, though, it's really expensive.

I don’t know exactly. However I know that veal is avoided because of the cruelty to keep calves in the dark?

And fur because animals are killed only for the fur and it also endangers animals?

I eat meat but where possible local, free range, and not in great quantities (mass production is pretty cruel).

All of it is horrific. There is no difference in any of it.

I think what humans do to animals is pretty horrific and cruel so when I hear someone has been eaten by a lion or a crocodile etc. I don't really give a shit.

Most veal eaten in Europe nowadays is the dark brown variety, not the pale stuff of old.