Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

[loveyouradvice]

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

• one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
• the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories

Wow thats long

And boring

Sheila Jefferies was talking about autogynephilia.

She used a slide of men who buy latex female body suits and masks and wear them.

She was showing latex strap on vulvas, advertising 'camel toes', for the same men. And a latex foot (which I didn't understand) with a vulvas/vagina in it.

These men, who identify as women, go out wearing these items. Hence parasite and the problem of allowing these men to be legally recognised as women.

Im going have to go read that sodding thread aren't i

Its 15 pages long!

rufus

It's really long. Not only that, the comments are really long too.

There is certainly food for thought, though. And the analysis does help clarify one's own viewpoint and how workable it is.

Oh goooodddddd!!

I think we all know by now that i dont do long

These men, who identify as women, go out wearing these items. - genuine question Datun but do they??

If there had been one single sighting in the last 14 years of a man in the M&S loos in a latex-doll bodysuit would it not have been all over the right-wing press?

And if it is happening but no-one can tell and nobody's noticed.... who cares?

I also don't understand the "parasite" thing, because that requires a living host, and surely not just a costume; I mean a pantomime horse isn't a horse parasite is it - are these fools parasites??

If you wouldn't call them parasites I wonder why it would be said of latex-wearing fetishists. But that's just a little musing of mine.

Rufus I linked that thread a couple of pages back at the point at the rolling back/amending the GRA was being discussed. That should help you skip maybe 10-12 pages :)

@Stillscreaming I find it interesting that you have already found the woman who's been questioned by the police to be guilty. You're stating what she's been accused of as fact, when she hasn't even be charged yet, let alone convicted.

Aaah thanks rat

a woman who's been questioned under caution by the police and who's file is currently with the CPS, with a view to charging her for Malicious Communication

This is what was written Assassinated, am I missing something?

Stillscreaming

Millwall were perfectly aware of the content of the meeting. The tickets explain it.

It was the pressure brought by transactivists and the way they framed it, that got them to cancel.

Every single time one of these meetings is advertised, the venue are brought under tremendous pressure to stop the debate.

I watched, in real time, a transactivist Facebook page saying let's fuck up some terfs, prior to the speakers corner meeting.

I watched them advising their group on how to lie to ascertain where the meeting was to be held within a mile of speakers corner. Calling every single potential venue.

I then saw Maria Mac's face injury after she had been hit.

Posie Parker has published her interview with the police, over tweets she has made regarding Mermaids.

She has been interviewed but has been charged with nothing. Her tweets have been echoed by hundreds of people.

Her case has been written up in The Times as a demonstration of the concept of free speech.

She did indeed get a standing ovation. Her talk was heartfelt and extremely topical, given how hard transactivists had tried to shut down that very meeting. Claiming that they phoned multiple times, using different phones and used different voices, in order to give the impression of numbers.

It comes as no surprise to anyone that the transactivist hashtag is #nodebate.

There was absolutely nothing stopping any trans person, activist or otherwise, from buying a ticket and putting their point across.

If I had only one target, in this entire issue, it would be debate.

Publicly. On TV.

I know what the arguments are. From both sides.

And I would be perfectly happy for them to be heard.

In fact, I would urge it.

These men, who identify as women, go out wearing these items. Hence parasite and the problem of allowing these men to be legally recognised as women.

These are not the extent of Sheila Jefferies' views. Sheila Jefferies' extreamist views are available to anyone who want to google her name.

However, it's not a very sensible point. People have all kinds of weird kinks, as long as they happen in the privacy of their own homes, no children or animals are involved and everyone consents, no one cares.

Lots of people of are into S&M, they dress up in all kinds of things at home, leather, latex, rubber, if it's wipe clean, they're all over it. None of those clothes are illegal to wear in public but people don't.

If anyone did take to wearing them in public, a gender recognition certificate wouldn't legally protect them from the outraging public decency laws, a GRC makes you legally female, it doesn't give any extra rights over that.

I'm also legally female because I was born female, if I took to popping to Tesco in a kinky latex naked body suit, I'd be arrested and charged.

This is what was written Assassinated, am I missing something?

Yes, you are rat.

Malicious Communication because of abusive Tweets she's been sending.

The entire charge rests upon whether or not they are considered abusive.

In terms of how many men go out in female bodysuits, there are several programmes about them.

They may well be niche. Autogynephilia isn't.

Nether are the slightly less bonkers products like latex vulvas, period kits, prosthetic pregnancy pumps, etc.

These sites are catering to a market which is thriving. A market, the consumers of which, can legitimately claim they are women.

Autogynephilia is a reality amongst the trans community.

I'm sure you, no more than I, believe these men are women.

It needs to be discussed and highlighted.

Whether you would get arrested wearing a female body suit, isn't really the point Stillscreaming.

It's about highlighting the issue of AGP.

AssassinatedBeauty

I find it interesting that you have already found the woman who's been questioned by the police to be guilty. You're stating what she's been accused of as fact, when she hasn't even be charged yet, let alone convicted.

No, reading her Tweeets make me thing that her views are extreamist and that she's using them to harass people.

Twitter is a bullpit, people say really awful and hateful things to each other all the time, for the police to have involve themselves, means that someone has gone well past the point of stating their view or even stating their view in a rude and nasty way.

Whether you would get arrested wearing a female body suit, isn't really the point Stillscreaming.

It is the point, what anyone wears in private is their own business. It only becomes your business if they're wearing it in public and forcing you to look at it and we have laws that protect you from that. A GRC isn't a get out of jail free card.

I then saw Maria Mac's face injury after she had been hit.

That was awful for that woman, I have all the sympathy in the world and I feel that the person who attacked her should be punished to the full extent of the law.

I think that anyone who thinks that their views are an excuse to break the law, has lost the plot.

You stated the tweets were abusive. That has yet to be proven, and the police became involved because it was reported to them. The outcome of the CPS decision on whether to charge her is still outstanding. So to state definitively that the tweets were abusive is jumping the gun, no matter how you personally feel about them.

I could get embroiled in a debate about the legitimacy of AGP and what evidence there is that 1) it exists and 2) it poses a threat to women, but I think that would be missing the point.

The point is even if a AGP were a real thing, and an AGP individual did pose a tangible threat or detriment to women, and they were able to get a GRC "easily" by self-ID... what on earth would they be able to do with it that they aren't able to do already?

How would it enable them to circumvent the protections women have in place in the EA?

AGP seems rather a tool used to engender mistrust and a negative visceral reaction to the notion of transexualism/transgenderism. Although perhaps that's cynical of me, for which I hold up my hands.

Stillscreaming

Sorry, no. Autogynephiles practice their fetish in public all the time.

Being seen as a woman is arousing, being addressed as a woman is arousing, insisting on pronouns is arousing, accessing women only spaces is arousing.

People who are being forced to except these individuals as women, are unwittingly participating in the fetish. They are turning the person on.

And many women realise it, and are desperately uncomfortable.

Below is a link to a thread by, and for, women who are married to men with AGP.

These men don't have gender dysphoria. They are not 'born in the wrong body'.

They are fetishists. But, significantly, they are fetishising the very state they claim to be.

If you can't see the mindfuck in that, then I can't help you.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

AGP seems rather a tool used to engender mistrust and a negative visceral reaction to the notion of transexualism/transgenderism. Although perhaps that's cynical of me,

Nope, that's about right.

I have a profoundly negative attitude and mistrust of an ideology that can result in legitimising a fetish.

@ AB

You stated the tweets were abusive. That has yet to be proven, and the police became involved because it was reported to them. The outcome of the CPS decision on whether to charge her is still outstanding. So to state definitively that the tweets were abusive is jumping the gun, no matter how you personally feel about them.

The person who punched Maria Mac probably hasn't been convinced yet, might not even have been charged, the law and slow and often works in favour of those who break it.

I wouldn't stand up and clap that person on the basis of them being innocent until proven guilty and I'd think anyone who did was making a very big mistake.

It's my understanding that the person plead guilty to a lesser charge. I mean, it's on film from six different angles.

I believe that it wasn't accepted and it is now going to trial.

Sorry, no. Autogynephiles practice their fetish in public all the time.

We're not the thought police, what's happening in someone's head doesn't impact other people.

We have laws to protect us from people's behaviours and actions.

I've read somewhere that men have a sexual thought ever few minutes. That's a bit of an icky thing to think about but while they're not acting on those thoughts, they are none of my business.