What is the difference? (Warning - another transgender thread)

[Flippetydip]

I am prepared to get totally flamed for this but it is a genuine, and not meant to be goady question. I know there is a huge amount of transgender posts on here at the moment (hence the title so people have the choice not to read) but my question is:

If I can self ID as a man (or woman if I'm a man) can I self ID as a person of another race? I seem to recall a huge hoo-ha back along over some woman in the States who identified as black but was originally white and was absolutely pilloried. Genuinely, what is the difference?

Thank you FreiasBathtub. That is much appreciated.

I have to say that I do struggle myself to understand the modern generation of trans people who seem to be exploding in numbers and driven by entitlement.

That is alien to anyone who was trans up to the past decade or so because we did what we did out of survival necessity and not choice. We knew the sacrifices would be immense.

I took a conscious decision when I was about 14 or 15 that I was not going to have any personal relationships until I transitioned as I felt that would be unfair.

I knew that I was not gay (though had no problem with those who were as I knew one or two) but also that I only wanted to date boys.

But it would have been incredible selfish to do that then because it would have led them into a homosexual relationship from their perspective and so, from my perspective one held under false pretences.

One boy did try to get close with me and I shared with him my situation. He was very kind and obviously stunned and I have no idea if he understood what I was telling him. I don't think he was gay and - indeed - he went onto marry the daughter of the owner of a gold mine and eventually up running it, so I guess I did him no harm!

I am constantly surprised at myself for doing this in those volatile emotional years as a teen. It would have been easy to be selfish. I can only imagine that having known I was trans for years by that point and being raised in a loving family - both parents were closely involved in the church and brought me up through Sunday school to respect others - that I owed this to them.

Either way, years later seeing how so many trans people from those days married, had kids and tried to escape the tough road to medical transition this way then I am glad that somehow I avoided doing that.

When these adults transitioned decades later there were many others around them left as collateral damage who were innocently dragged into this mess. That is a terrible thing brought about by their inability to face up to resolving their problem before bringing others into their mess.

So I support those who are trans getting help as early as possible in life provided we retain the rigorous checks that ensure nobody is furthered to transition irreversibly until an adult or at all until everyone is sure of that persistence of insistence part of the necessary diagnosis.

We should not be encouraging natural child development experimentation to be seen as more than that. Or over reacting to what will be in most cases - thank God - a phase that will pass and not be a true transgender child.

But equally those few who really are trans need proper guidance and help so that they can deal with this before they bring in others in a vain attempt to cure themselves by using spouses and children as the medicine. You should not be playing doctor with other human beings as the medicine.

Sadly, years ago I think doctors drove a number of trans people to do just that on their advice as they were - like many who do not understand this matter well are wont to do - and imagine an easy cure on just 'being yourself' and 'embracing it' and 'all will work out well'.

If you are not really trans that will be true. If you are then there is no magic wand and the worst thing we can do is try to make on out of other people's lives.

Jayceedove "Riverside - being a woman is surely obviously more than about just biology, just as being a man is.

A little puzzled this needs explanation. It is about who you are and your personality and how you interact with human beings and the way you live your life."

I'm afraid I'm puzzled by your explanation. To me, being a woman is about biology. Who I am and my personality etc might be influenced by being a woman but that will apply differently across individuals.

so ultimately, yes, being a woman is about biology and the term "living as a woman" absolutely baffles me. I have read your posts saying about how doctors treated you and I'm still not feeling any more informed. I get that living as a woman can involve - for example - regular heavy bleeding for half your life - but to me that's not "living as a woman" - it's a result of being a biological woman and not a result that every bio woman necessarily has, some have barely any bleeding.

so what is "living as a woman"?

Riverside - being a woman is surely obviously more than about just biology

I think that for women all over the world who have suffered in varying degrees for no other reason than biologically female body, this statement is kind of offensive.

Women have been told since time began that their biological bodies make them inferior. They continue to be oppressed on the basis of their biology. But now men are not only continuing their oppression, but they are also redefining what 'woman' means. Women are being told by men that 'its not about biology you know' whilst also still being oppressed by men on nothing more than their biology.

I have never said that it is 'not about biology'. I said that being a woman is more than that.

Of course, I understand the importance of biology and the role it has had in repression over the centuries. And have not suggested it be ignored or minimalized.

But I thought the idea of freedom from repression was to gain self expression as a person - integrating biology into part of yourself but not making it the only reason you are who you are.

I think a lot of this comes down to protection of definitions and I don't recall in any of the 20 or so posts I have posted on here over the past 24 hours I have ever tried to redefine anything.

I have made very clear I am well aware of what sex and gender are and their differences and that I have had my gender reassigned.

More than once I have pointed out that I had to sign a form to that effect. That was 42 years ago when I did.

So I have lived 42 years 'as a woman'; - in so far as I am concerned and pretty much everyone I know in day to day life.

Nobody has called me anything else, let me put it that way, during those years.

Do I deny biology? Nope. Do I want to redefine language? Nope.
Do I mind you believing what you want to believe about me? Nope.

I am perfectly happy in of myself as I am.

But I am not going to go around calling myself a man as that is not how I see myself or how anybody in my life sees me.

And as that is what matters in any human beings life - how they get on with other people and treat them and are treated by them - that is fine with me.

Your choice is your choice. I am not insisting otherwise.

Jayceedove "I said that being a woman is more than that."

what I'm trying to figure out is what the "more" is.

Mmm.

Wrestling with this.

I guess, Jaycee, that what you have done is effectively to make yourself biologically intersex, with the sacrifices that that entails.

I can also see that (outside the online world) so many things are subtly or not so subtly directed at one sex rather than the other that it's hard to live life neutrally. A gender-free world is not likely to happen any time soon, and that gives me quite a bit of sympathy for those with genuine dysphoria.

(Can I be pointlessly nosy and ask how on earth you shop for women's clothing and shoes, if you are of average male height?)

As I said I think this is all about definitions. How you mean woman - I assume in strictly XX v XY terms?

Whereas I mean it in the sense that most people use it in day to day life - as in who are you are as perceived by those around you.

I think we are arguing in circles when there is no actual disagreement.

If you are trying to get me to say I want trans women to be redefined as women biologically I won't, because, right now science cannot do that.

If it could have done then I would have been there like a shot.

I have had to accept from childhood that I would never have children or be married or - as I kept getting told - fulfil my potential (they meant as a man I imagine).

Had science allowed me to biologically change then I would have done so regardless of risk.

I hope one day that people like me will get that chance when science has found a way and that people out there who are less tolerant now might become a little more understanding when they realise that trans people are NOT trying to usurp women or their biology. They are desperately unhappy not to be able to aspire to that level.

Though I have my doubts - based on how few seem interested in anything involving physical transition these days - if the new generation of self identifiers would self identify that far even if it were possible.

Jayceedove "Whereas I mean it in the sense that most people use it in day to day life - as in who are you are as perceived by those around you.

I think we are arguing in circles when there is no actual disagreement"

I'm not seeking argument or disagreement. I am seeking an understanding of the term "living as a woman" or any clarification on what you feel makes a woman other than biology.

Interesting thread.

Dodopatrol. I guess to a point you are right. Of course, the perception of gender roles is very different now to how it was in the 1950s and 60s when I was little. So I cannot imagine there was no influence from that reality.

Possibly today some are able to overcome dysphoria without full transition - hence the change in emphasis.

Though in reality the numbers who do physically transition as fully as possible in 2018 are pretty similar to all those years ago. A couple of hundred per year.

My guess is that this is the base level transsexual population showing its rarity. And that the percentage who are not transitioning physically has risen mostly because the ones who now socially transition are just taking the opportunity to do so as long as it does not involve drastic icky stuff that they cannot change back from if they prefer to going back to be gay or effeminate or butch.

As for how do I shop? Not a problem happily.

It helped a little that I started transition early.

I am only five feet five, take size 12 clothes (in most shops anyhow) and size five or six shoes depending on need for comfort or show.

38, 28, 38 if you are really nosey! :)

"Whereas I mean it in the sense that most people use it in day to day life - as in who are you are as perceived by those around you."

If 'woman' were who you are as perceived as by those around you then you are only accepting people who 'pass', it would also mean that many hairy lesbians and other GNC females are not woman.

By the way I have not had any breast implants. I was offered this on the NHS in 1978 but my partner and I discussed it carefully and we decided to be happy with my natural C cup size. I am happy that I went that route.

Personally I'm more comfortable with 'living as a woman' than 'being a woman'.

To me, being a woman is biological.

Living as a woman is the experience of interacting with the world as a woman. Some of that - a big part - is of course dictated by my personal experience of my biology. Needing somewhere safe in public where I can change my tampon each month, needing medical and social support for the changes to my body and mind that come with pregnancy and childbirth. I wouldn't expect that a transwoman can 'live' as a woman in this respect.

Other things come from the way that people with my biology have historically been treated, and the role we've historically played in society. Poor conviction rates for crimes with predominantly female bodied victims. Lower pay. Underrepresentation in politics, the media, business - in fact, most spheres of public life.

Of course all of this ultimately stems from female biology - but it's about how women as a class are treated, regardless of their individual biology (menstruating/not menstruating; fertile/not fertile).

I'm willing to accept that someone like Jayceedove, who transitioned young and has, to all intents and purposes, been 'seen' by the world as a woman for many many years, has experienced some of the same disadvantages I have, because they are SEEN as a woman, not because they ARE one. The distinction between 'living as' and 'being'.

I'm not saying that a transwoman experiences these things in the same way, or that they affect her in the same way, but that we have more common ground than, say, a man who has never been seen by the world as a woman.

And I think it's really important that we maintain the distinction between people who were born with the biology and lived experience of a woman, and the people who have opted into the lived experience. But I'm prepared to accept that we have some common ground.

I am NOT prepared to accept any common ground with people who have not been treated by the world as a woman for many, many years.

Jellyfrizz,. I did not say that or mean that.

I am not talking about appearance at all. There was a woman on This Morning today with more hair on her chest than most men. She has chosen to embrace it. I do not in any way think that effects my viewing her as a woman.

People take you as they find you and treat you as they perceive you.

I am fortunate not in having great looks but in being able to be perceived as I feel. Perhaps it is all about how you self project I do not know.

What I do know is that I have had very little transphobia since the very early days when there was a little for a week or two.

Though a lot of people know I am trans in my life and outside of it thanks to the tabloids it never comes up in conversation (well not never these days - but rarely as opposed to never up to two or three years ago).

People just do not see me day to day as trans because I don't make a song and dance about it and just get on with being me.

Like pretty much all the trans people I know or have met - which is not that many.

I wasn't nosy enough to ask for actual measurements (thanks anyhow!) but my terrifyingly statuesque MIL has endless trouble finding size 9.5 shoes. She has bigger feet than my son does.

@jayceedove thank you for your posts which have been really interesting and provided much food for thought.

@Iminthecclubnow you are labouring under a misunderstanding. Trans people aren't claiming to have changed their biological sex, or that they are able to. They are claiming that biological sex is not what determines gender. Transwomen have the biological attributes we define as male. The argument being made is that having male biological attributes doesn't mean your gender has to be male.

Yes, it must be difficult for some trans women who are not lucky to have a less substantial frame. Though my sister in law is nearly 6 feet tall and takes size 8 shoes. So they are around. Though she would probably not take well to my suggesting she look at one of the on line trans stores that specialise in things like large sized shoes.

She was a great help to me in the early days, though, as she was my brother's childhood sweetheart and they married at 18 around the start of my transition. Not being a cross dresser I had no experience of this and she was very kind in being a guide and I adopted some of her clothing up front.

Thanks for your informative and thoughtful posts Jaycee.

I appreciate the thank yous.

It has frustrated me that this has turned into some kind of war of words played out through the media.

Just wanted to try to add some balance and restraint from my side of the fence.

Always happy to answer any questions. It is much better to seek understanding and earn tolerance than to demand it because......

people out there who are less tolerant now might become a little more understanding when they realise that trans people are NOT trying to usurp women or their biology

For many of us it's been exactly the opposite. Many of us weren't just tolerant but welcoming, happy and supportive when it was transsexual people who didn't demand from us.

But now some men are saying "I'm a woman - better, more oppressed, more right than you stinky cis women". They want to take over womanhood and tell us what we are allowed to talk about, care about, how we meet, how safe we can be and that we are not allowed to choose our own sexual boundaries.

It's made me a good deal less tolerant. Which I hate.

The problem is not you or us, it's them.

Jaycee I'll admit to struggling a bit here and it's because I know who you are and I know you're not a transactivist. I also enjoy your work.

One of the things that I struggle with is trans people describing that they didn't feel like a boy and concluding that they therefore must be a girl. I feel this is down to their own stereotypes of what boys and girls should do and how they should behave.

Trans people seem to reject one stereotype yet embrace another. They are often upset and surprised that other people also reject certain stereotypes. Just as you rejected masculinity and certain stereotypes women reject the same. And this is why women get angry when men tell them that engaging in certain behaviours make them women. I don't feel like a "real" woman, and I reject the stereotypes put on me.

When trans people describe dysphoria I believe they are describing the feeling that many women have. That something isn't right, something doesn't add up, that certain expected behaviours don't feel right.

Of course sex is inherited. You inherit an x chromosome from your father you are a female, you inherit a y chromosome from your father you are male (you always get an x chromosome from your mother).

That is basic biology

This has been a very informative read, out of all those under the trans umbrella, transsexuals are the ones I can understand more easily. I feel they have been dealt a bad hand with the use of gender instead of sex.

It is much better to seek understanding and earn tolerance than to demand it because......

So much respect and appreciation for this comment, @Jaycee and for all your patient explanation.