To ask people who work in the area how abortion laws are implemented

[purpleangel17]

I was having a debate with an acquaintance the other day about abortion. I have no personal experience of abortion but I think the current law over here gets it about right with the requirement that it is permitted only where two doctors agree that continuing the pregnancy would harm the woman or foetus' mental or physical health. My acquaintance was saying it isn't applied strictly and effectively in the UK we have 'abortion on demand' as long as the gestation period is in the legal range. E.g a woman saying she just doesn't want a baby at the moment could get an abortion. Is this right?

effectively in the UK we have 'abortion on demand'

I think you mean in Britain, not the UK.

Continuing an unwanted pregnancy would have serious potential to harm a woman's mental health therefore a woman saying "I don't want a baby" meets the criteria set out by law.

I think your acquaintance is right. I don't think that's a bad thing. I mean, the alternative is worse.

Also, not all women in the UK have access to abortion.

Depends a bit on the doctor. Some of them are not very helpful. So no, it’s not “on demand”it’s more hoops to jump through than is needed and there’s a bit of victim blaming attached for good measure

My acquaintance did think it was a bad thing. I am not sure I think it is a good thing. The rights of the woman and foetus have to be balanced against each other, in my view. The law as it stands I thought achieved that balance but I don't think just not wanting a pregnancy automatically constitutes a mental health risk. But I have never been in that position and would not want there not to be the option of abortion in those circumstances where harm would be done to the health of the woman or foetus.

I thought abortion was available throughout the UK but I assume you mean NI so apologies if I got that wrong.

Your acquaintance is broadly correct. Most terminations in GB are done under category C which is '‘the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuation of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman’. If a woman says that she does not want to be pregnant anymore it will be categorised as C because it has to be categorised as something, and this is the most appropriate. I have never known a woman's reasons for wanting to end a pregnancy be rejected as not good enough.

Depends on the doctor you see I suppose. I had one when I was 20 - all I said to my gp was that I didn't want a baby. She wrote me a referral letter to the clinic and then the doctor at the clinic was the 2nd sign off. No one ever asked me any questions about my decision, I would say that was basically an abortion on demand.

I know a friend who had to see 3 different gp's before she found one who would refer her due to their ability to opt out for their own reasons, so I think it very much comes down to which dr you see to start with.

I don't think it's a bad thing - some women would undoubtably experience mental health problems if they went on to have a baby they didn't want/couldn't support - and since we've no way of knowing which women would be affected we offer to all.

I don't think just not wanting a pregnancy automatically constitutes a mental health risk

Do you think forced birth and forced child rearing constitute a mental health risk?

The rights of the woman and foetus have to be balanced against each other

The rights of woman override the rights of the foetus (which has no rights as it is not an autonomous being) as it is her body and therefore her choice. Pregnancy is not without risk and no one should be forced to run that risk if they don't want to.

The requirement is, thankfully, not strict. If you tell them you don't want a baby, you qualify.

Your friend is right. Although I don’t think you need to agree that the physical or mental health of the mother or baby would be at risk before 24 weeks. It’s only after that that comes into play.

So yes, up until 24 weeks a woman should be able to get an abortion because she doesn’t want a baby yet. Doctors have the right to object from referring you on moral grounds though so it can be a bit more complicated than the law suggests it should be.

Abortion is not available throughout the UK
the UK violates human rights in this

Even if a doctor has a conscientious objection they are obliged to refer you to a dr who hasn't but that obviously causes delays. Many locations in GB do not have easy access to a termination past certain gestations as many NHS service only offer cat C termination up to a certain gestation, often well below 24 weeks. So while the reason a woman has for wanting to end a pregnancy won't usually preclude her from accessing a service, some women undoubtedly face other hurdles to access, particularly at later gestations (beyond 14 weeks)

I don't think just not wanting a pregnancy automatically constitutes a mental health risk

You can't see the mental health risk (and physical risk as well, don't forget) with having a baby you do not want? I'm sure you can if you try a bit harder.

Mother, I think they can do but don't always. And I disagree about the foetus. But I guess I appreciate in practice erring on the side of caution makes sense. I just feel uncomfortable with the idea it could become almost a fallback contraception method, which personally I don't think it should be.

We are really lucky here to have access to safe abortions. Depending on area, it can be quite straightforward. I use BPAS and it was all booked over the phone then several consultations on the day to cover the two doctors rule. I think that access would be better if that rule wasn't there, because it takes up time and therefore expense. Yes it shouldn't be a 'simple' process, however for most of us it wasn't a simple decision and by the time you get to that point you'd rather it was quick and easy.
However on the flip side there are 'frequent flyers' to the service and I think more prevention would be better in their case.

The situation for women in NI is appalling and I feel angry about that. Having to fly over here for an abortion is expensive and stressful, needs time off work etc.

I just feel uncomfortable with the idea it could become almost a fallback contraception method, which personally I don't think it should be

Abortion is not and can not be a contraception method. And your comfort level or what you think other people should do is entirely irrelevant.

Statistically, early abortion is generally safer than continuing a pregnancy, so that allows doctors who are minded to do so to approve pretty much any termination. The law was intended to set a clinical gateway for abortion - so putting power in the hands of doctors, not women - but in effect we have abortion on demand. There are some doctors who are unco-operative but if women are reasonably resourceful and on the mainland they can get an abortion. Plus, the NHS has got round the reluctance of many doctors to do abortions by contracting out to the independent sector.

All quite right in my view - there is nothing in medical training that equips a doctor to be a better judge of whether a woman should continue a pregnancy than the woman herself - and the law should be reformed by removing the requirement for the second doctor, and amending the clinical component so that the doctor is just checking the woman is medically fit for termination, not whether she should have one.

Bottom line: if you think there are ever justifications for abortion, then you don't think abortion is murder. If you don't think abortion is murder, why would you force women to give birth against their will?

If a woman finds out she is pregnant and wants to end that pregnancy, for what ever reason, then she should be able to do so safely and without being made to feel guilty for making that choice.

Abortion really is not a method of contraception, but even if women were to use it in that way then why would that prove problematic? Every child deserves to be a wanted child.

It can be used as such if a woman perceives a pregnancy as something she can easily get rid of. Hopefully it rarely is seen that way.

And yes my comfort level is irrelevant to the law but I am entitled to express it, as you are to disagree.

Having a baby is dangerous. Mortality rate giving birth in the U.K. is c.1 in 10,000 if I recall correctly.

As a comparison, doing a parachute jump has a mortality rate of c. 1 in 100,000.

Terminations are much safer relatively.

Therefore it does apply to every pregnancy.

I just feel uncomfortable with the idea it could become almost a fallback contraception method, which personally I don't think it should be. Well, abortion has been legal for over 50 years. I think it's had its chance to become a mainstream method of contraception, don't you?

There are of course some women whose lives are so chaotic and difficult that they end up having multiple abortions with no real effort to prevent that happening. But I think that's rare - IME (I used to work in unplanned pregnancy) those women are much more likely to have multiple unplanned children. And not only is it strange to think those women should be forced to have unwanted children, it's rather unfair on the children too.

It can be used as such if a woman perceives a pregnancy as something she can easily get rid of. Hopefully it rarely is seen that way

It can't be used as such. Do you understand what the word contraception means?
An unwanted pregnancy should be something any woman can easily get rid of.

Wow so many irresponsible, selfish women getting pregnant and having multiple abortions