To ask people who work in the area how abortion laws are implemented

[purpleangel17]

I was having a debate with an acquaintance the other day about abortion. I have no personal experience of abortion but I think the current law over here gets it about right with the requirement that it is permitted only where two doctors agree that continuing the pregnancy would harm the woman or foetus' mental or physical health. My acquaintance was saying it isn't applied strictly and effectively in the UK we have 'abortion on demand' as long as the gestation period is in the legal range. E.g a woman saying she just doesn't want a baby at the moment could get an abortion. Is this right?

Shall I list the risks for you?

Pregnancy:

• hyperemesis gravidarum, aka the most soul destroying nine fucking months imaginable
• morning sickness
• tooth decay
• blood pressure problems
• piles
• varicose veins
• acne
• changes in size and appearance of body (e.g., bump, larger breasts, etc)
• water retention
• constipation
• diarrhea
• migraines
• tiredness
• insomnia
• sciatica
• SPD
• AND
• all manner of serious complications such as pre-eclampsia, obstetric cholestasis, gestational diabetes, etc
• employment issues due to time off for appointments or time off for sickness related to pregnancy, issues relating to maternity leave and perceived lack of dedication to the business
• housing issues
• social issues
• relationship issues
• financial issues

Childbirth

• death
• major abdominal surgery
• haemorrhage
• permanent damage due to birth injuries
• PTSD and PND
• infection
• breast issues such as mastitis or blocked ducts
• seperated abdominal muscles
• incontinence
• prolapse
• employment issues
• housing issues
• social issues
• relationship issues

And I've barely even scratched the surface here of what risks and complications are involved in pregnancy and childbirth.

Absolutely no one should have to carry and deliver a baby who doesn't want to have a baby.

Yes, we have abortion on demand. It is effectively written into the legislation as abortion at almost any stage is safer than pregnancy and labour, so an abortion can always be said to be better for the woman's physical and mental health than a pregnancy. I grit my teeth when women come in for their fifth abortion, refusing any contraception - but that is their right.

Abortion is effectively available on demand in Britain and that is a good thing.

Maybe not surprising my views on abortion don't chime with the majority on Mumsnet, but thank you for clarifying the legal position, which is what I asked. I will bow out now as you won't change my mind nor me yours.

It’s very disingenuous of you to post as if you’re confused, when really you just want to push your forced birth agenda.

And yes my comfort level is irrelevant to the law but I am entitled to express it, as you are to disagree

Yes you are entitled to express your nasty views, but since you know well you are expressing them to women who have had abortions, why do you think they want to hear what you think is wrong with them and what they do? Would you say it to peoples face or are you only brave enough behind your screen?

Having worked in a termination of pregnancy clinic I feel that the level of ease (if you can call it that) in getting an abortion was where it should be.

As has been mentioned the termination has to be agreed by two doctors. In most cases the women who came to us had their Cert A referral signed by the GP or doctor they saw to get to us. The second doctor was then the one who saw them in clinic for the scan and talking things through.

For the unfortunate ones who saw a doctor who did not want to sign the form (which they can do if they wish) they were then either sent to another doctor prior to us, or had to see 2 doctors at our clinic.

I can only talk from my experience but it certainly wasn't on demand. We were a small clinic with limited capacity so women would be lucky to be seen the same week, have the option of travelling to another clinic or face a short wait/be willing to fill a cancellation slot. It's not as simple as finding out you are pregnant and then popping off to the clinic that day, or it wasn't here anyway.

Agree with Don'tLetMe: Most terminations in GB are done under category C which is '‘the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuation of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman’.

There are other categories, but this covers the majority. So yes, in a way we do have "in demand" abortions- because there is no objective way of deciding if a woman who claims continuing an unwanted pregnancy would cause injury to her mental health is not being truthful: i.e. that she does not meet criteria for an abortion under category C of the act.

Though two Dr's do have to agree this is the case. As someone who signs the forms, I can honestly say that I have never questioned a woman's right to an abortion if she has requested one- and undergone the counselling done by staff at the 1st assessment appointment, so is fully informed with regards to her decision to proceed. I think being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term is bound to cause problems for the majority of women, to a greater or lesser degree.

on demand not in demand abortions.

'The rights of the woman and foetus must be respected'.

No, a foetus doesn't have rights as it doesn't legally exist and can't physically exist outside of the woman's body. The living woman's rights totally trump that of the cluster of cells growing inside her uterus.

Before the 1967 Abortion Act, over 70 women a year died in Britain from illegal back street abortions. Mainly from sepsis, but also from air embolism when soapy water was forcibly injected into the uterus.
Illegal abortion was the leading cause of maternal mortality.
You cannot stop women having abortions - you can only stop them having safe medically supervised ones. As a doctor, I’d fight any attempt to restrict women's access to this vital service. As a feminist, I believe it should be available to any woman who needs one, on request.
I wish people who object to abortion would stop trying to tell other women what to do with their own bodies - we do not want a return to the carnage of the 1950’s.

or the current situation in Ireland
.

One thing that really pisses me off is that existing children aren't seen as more important than the potential child. If the woman feels her existing children will be affected by having another child then that reason is huge and nobody should bat an eyelid about it.

longwavyhair Exactly!
My existing children are the reason I had an abortion
I was suicidal when I found out I was pregnant..
No amount of counselling, money or support would have made me go through with that pregnancy.. I'd have been dead as would the feotus! Where would that have left my born living children 😥