Cultural misappropriation and hair

[meandthem]

Am I being unreasonable to object to ethnicity being a factor in respect of what hairstyle choices women are "allowed"? I am pissed of that it now seems acceptable for some styles to be considered cultural misappropriation. What happened to the sisterhood and feminism and women's right to do what the hell we want with our hair!

@notdavidtennant We aren't talking about race though - we are talking about culture. It would be very racist to suggest that there are inherent differences in races (such as intelligence / strength / ability) but that isn't under discussion here.

What is under discussion is CULTURE, and it's absolutely indisputable that different groups of people have different cultures. It isn't racist to be aware of that, or to celebrate it.

It is also an indisputable fact that some cultures have been oppressed and marginalised by others. That is the reality of our world, and no amount of talk about 'common heritage as human beings' can alter reality. When black people were enslaved, subjected to Jim Crow laws, lynched, segregated and discriminated against the people doing those things weren't bothered about shared human heritage.

Cultural appropriation is white people taking things black people have created and getting credit for it, while simultaneously denying credit to the creators. If you can't see how that is harmful, I can only assume you're being wilfully ignorant because accepting the truth is too uncomfortable for you.

Once again I am stunned at the level of racism on Mumsnet. All the PC gorn mad and cultural appropriation is lefty nonsense. Ye gods, it's scary!

They may have very little power compared to other white people, but that doesn't mean they should be insensitive to people who have even less power.

It’s highly debatable that they do have less power. In fact they are probably the group most likely to have been denied proper services (police, justice, health services, social work services) on the basis of their race in recent times. Tens of thousands of them if not more.

And wtf is meaningful discrimination?

You can use dictionaries. Freely available via Google. HTH.

@Withhindsight I already used this analogy but will share again.

You're in a meeting with a few colleagues. You suggest an idea, and it's ignored by most of your colleagues. A couple of them tell you they think it's a stupid idea.

Five minutes later, one of your colleagues makes the same suggestion you did. Everyone loves it.

How would you feel? Would you think it was really flattering that he copied you?

Or would you think it was pretty unfair that he got the credit for your idea? Would you feel like you deserved the recognition and praise he received, even though all he did was take something you created and share it?

I don't know if it's analogous but I get really tetchy about straight people wanting civil partnerships.
Gay culture has this one thing to call our own.
We fought hard for it.
Straight people who adopted it wouldn't have the same link to a struggle that led to the right for civil partnership.
They don't have decades or centuries of oppression on the basis of being denied legal union.

It would make no material difference to me if a straight couple had one but the blithe and solipsistic way some people demand one just makes me feel they don't understand what I've gone through in my life and marks them out as potentially not a supportive ally.

I think when you're a member of an oppressed group your cultural heritage becomes very precious and linked to forming a positive identity eg Black is Beautiful

But in an ideal world none of us would notice gay, straight, black white...just like our children and more and more like the young people in society who have grown up in a different environment. And all would be available to everyone ...hairstyles, civil partnerships etc.. surely we can all strive towards such a world..

Why? Why can't people notice positive aspects of their distinct cultures?

It's significant to me that I am a lesbian.
If someone told me to strive towards a world where being a lesbian was meaningless I would give them a wide berth tbh.

Would prefer a world where historic and current oppression was acknowledged and challenged.

Enuff thank you I do get your point and more the context of this thread which I'm leaving now. There are a lot of us who do understand the cultural origins and it seems to be more about a need to educate the ignorant rather than a backlash stating that you can't wear your hair like that unless you are from that culture.

I'm a bit of a leftie SJW myself, but I am on the fence about some aspects of cultural appropriation.

So, using something that has a spiritual significance to a less privileged groups (say, Native America headdresses) as party-wear - yes, I can see that's not on and insensitive.

Using cultural stereotypes for dressing up - yes, this is usually off.

Hairdos - black women women get a lot of crap from white people about their hair, being told that anything other than relaxed hair is 'unprofessional' etc and that sucks and shouldn't happen. But the argument I hear against white people having dreads or cornrows is often 'Black people get slated for having these hairstyles, but when they're presented on white women everyone praises it and thinks its wonderful', which would also suck if true, but I don't think that's the case. White people usually get slagged off as wannabes or hippies or crusties for having those dos. It's a superficial gripe, I know, but there you have it.

Not meaningless... It would just make no difference to things like whether we were friends, whether you got a job or what laws applied to you etc..

@Elizzaa in an ideal world we will celebrate and support the unique and amazing creations all cultures have to offer. How could it be a good thing to live in a world where everyone is the same and we don't notice the differences that make the world such an amazing, diverse, beautiful, exciting place!

In the future I hope we can celebrate different cultures without stealing from them, recognising different contributions respectfully and without discrimination.

We shouldn't strive for sameness. We should strive for respect and equality.

What always strikes me with conversations like this is that some people begin from the assumption that we're all, basically, equal now because the laws say so. We're not.

"Let's all celebrate our shared humanity and have whatever hairstyles we want" is fine and dandy when you don't still have black women making decisions about their appearance based on trying to avoid racism rather than simple personal choice.

It slightly reminds me of Neil DeGrasse Tyson talking about why so few black people currently become scientists. He says fhat's a conversation for us to have once black and white people have true equality of opportunity. If we then find that there are still proportionally more white scientists than black ones, we can ask why that is, but it's a meaningless conversation until then.

I think this is similar. When all human beings feel able to wear their hair however they choose, then we can embrace our shared humanity. But we're not even close to that yet.

Enuffsenuffsenuff "We aren't talking about race though - we are talking about culture. It would be very racist to suggest that there are inherent differences in races (such as intelligence / strength / ability) but that isn't under discussion here."

Then why are people discussing how black you need to be to have a black hairstyle? Why are you framing things as being in respect to black people and white people if we are not talking about race?

I think you are the one who finds accepting the truth uncomfortable, because you want to frame your racial ideas as if they are not really about race. Deep down you see black people as 'other' and you want to be a virtuous person by being nice to the 'other' but ultimately you still see them as a homogeneous group who can, for instance, be credited with inventing a particular hairstyle.

"When black people were enslaved, subjected to Jim Crow laws, lynched, segregated and discriminated against the people doing those things weren't bothered about shared human heritage. "

Yes, and that's why we should care about shared human heritage because the idea is for us to be better people than they were.

Let's say there was a racist employer who was willing to employ a white person with dreadlocks but not a black person who has the same hairstyle? How does it help the black person in this situation if the white person decides not to wear dreadlocks? It doesn't. Indeed if anything it actually obscures the discrimination because the employer can claim they have a blanket policy of not allowing dreadlocks (knowing that this will implicitly discriminate against black people), whereas if anyone could wear any hairstyle that it would become more explicit that they were discriminating based on race.

That's why I ask how any of this actually helps black people. Because if you can't show that then the whole thing just seems to be posturing about how 'woke' we are.

There’ll never be true respect and equality if one culture cannot adopt from another without it being called theft whilst another culture can do so because of historic oppression.

When all human beings feel able to wear their hair however they choose, then we can embrace our shared humanity.

Embracing our shared humanity is what will lead to people being able to wear their hair however they choose. How can people not see that?

Totally missing the point. It’s not flattery. It’s a short sharp slap in the face.

@notdavidtennant then respond to my analogy about your colleague getting credit for your idea. Try and convince me that you truly feel in that situation that no harm is done to you. If you can plausibly respond to that I might start believing you're genuine, but at the moment it really just feels like you'll twist yourself into any knot necessary to ensure that you get to continue behaving however you like, regardless of how much damage it does to others.

In the real world no such thing as cultural appropriation. Its as another made up te by people who have nothing beeter to do with their time. Dress and have your hair how you want and tell these loons to jog on

A list of peoples who have been concerned with categorising everyone based on their racial heritage:

Nazis
Southern segregationsits
South African apartheidists
21st century "woke" liberals

@Notdavidtennant soooo... you can't respond to that analogy then? Because this attempt to fling mud instead isn't working as a distraction.

I think, as well as peak transactivism, we have reached peak identity politics....(thank you USA! Can you stop vomitting your ideologies and sins at us please?)

As soon as we have one rule for one group and a different one for another... then we are not in a good place. Historically not much good has come out of it.

There just aren't enough non-white women in any workplace I've ever worked at for me to fully understand this.

Would it be insensitive of me to say that having frizzy hair one boss has told me to brush it (that doesn't magically make it straight) and another boss (female if it makes a difference) told me use conditioner! I DO. Only now I know that no matter what they claim in their adverts, conditioners don't make frizzy hair smooth. I've also had a lot of people tell me apropos nothing at all about the keratin brazilian straightening treatment. I've never been for an interview without laboriously straightening my hair first. So I don't know if I'm indirectly agreeing with the OP here but women are not allowed to have non-smooth hair, it is seen as some sort of misdemeanor. Crimes against conventional femininity. In a workplace definitely.

The categorisation thing really worries me.

Is someone with mixed heritage but who looks "white" supposed to discard their other identity and identify as "white?"