Cultural misappropriation and hair

[meandthem]

Am I being unreasonable to object to ethnicity being a factor in respect of what hairstyle choices women are "allowed"? I am pissed of that it now seems acceptable for some styles to be considered cultural misappropriation. What happened to the sisterhood and feminism and women's right to do what the hell we want with our hair!

The issue isn’t necessarily that one can or cannot wear their hair in a certain way, it is more that white people are often praised for hairstyles that black women for centuries were told were ‘unruly’, ‘unprofessional’, ‘unkempt’ etc. Or white celebrities wearing a hair style acting like they invented it without giving credit. There is a looooooooooong history of white people denegrating black culture, then stealing ideas from black culture, not giving credit, and acting like it was a new idea all along. Rock n roll/ Elvis is a prime example of this. Recently Kim Kardashian had her hair done in a very specific braid and called it ‘Bo Derek Braids’ when in fact that hair style is called ‘Fulani braids’ and has been worn by black people for centuries (and often those who wear it in the western world were told it wasn’t ‘professional’).

The relationship between black women and their hair is incredibly complicated. It has only been VERY recently that natural hair has been ‘allowed’. And often in many professional settings it is still frowned upon. Look at Lupita Nyongo’s natural ponytail that was edited out of a magazine cover last month because it was called ‘messy’.

In order for black hair to be ‘acceptable’ it often needs to be chemically relaxed, costing hundreds and taking hours. Many start this process as young girls. This isn’t a choice like someone with European hair getting highlights, this is to be a minimum standard of what society has (wrongly) said is acceptable. Even Michelle Obama only recently started wearing her hair more natural instead of chemically relaxed now she is out of the White House .

There are stories all the time about school uniforms declaring black hair styles, and therefore black natural hair, unacceptable. There have been countless news stories about schools banning twists, locs, Bantu knots, braids etc, which usually only leave black women with the option to chemically relax their hair.

So white women, wear your hair how you want, but to disregard the challenges black women face to make their hair ‘acceptable’ is not just factually wrong, it’s downright mean.

Why, after millennia of degradation, enslavement, disenfranchisement, and worse, when black people simply ask for awareness, understanding and sensitivity on a few things, it’s a few obnoxious white people saying ‘this is just PC madness’? It’s embarrassing...

Elvis gave huge credit to the black people who inspired him, as did many other white Rock'n'Roll performers.

*Elvis gave huge credit to the black people who inspired him, as did many other white Rock'n'Roll performers.

This is a bold statement. Re: Elvis-Yes and no that he gave credit. He did open up some opportunities, he also did not credit the original writer of ‘Hound Dog’ (A black woman) until much later.

Regarding the rock and roll industry (started in the 50s/60s), it is patently false. Why you may be able to point to a handful of examples, as an industry it in no way was a bastion of equality. It regularly would not hire black artists, or more often would, but then would exploit and steal black artists music to give to more ‘socially acceptable’ white artists. Nina Simone, Ray Charles, Diana Ross, etc have all spoken about this and the industry during that time regularly.

I quite agree, much like any other industry at that time.
It was no secret Hound Dog was a Big Mama Thornton song.

Zoe
When I was at school (I’m mid 40’s) all the black girls wore their hair naturally, in pony tails or plaited (not tiny braids so more like Bantu knots but plaited and not knotted). I remember one girl getting her hair chemically relaxed in the mid 80’s at 14/15 when I was getting a perm. This was the first time I’d really seen girls or women getting their hair relaxed being a 70’s child.

As for issues in school. The only one I could see hitting the media after a google was a girl, who had her hair extended. Other children at the school are/were braiding their hair and the school had no objection to this. The school rules were that braiding was fine, extensions not fine.

Young children and school children do not need to get their hair relaxed. However, I think banning braids at School is ridiculous as that seriously limits options, which breeds anger and resentment. Chemically relaxed hair has been more and more fashionable since the 80’s, perhaps this is due to the advancement and availability of product. But relaxed hair at school is fashion statement.

The current trend of braiding ethnic hair was not seen much when I was a child in the 70’s as women wore their hair naturally and had careers. I know black women ironed their hair in the past to conform. Other women did this too. I get that was far more difficult to do on ethnic hair. I read the post upthread about type 4c hair with shock. And also read the employer attitude to getting clients is easier when having straight hair. White women also have pressures to conform and won’t get in customer facing roles if their hair isn’t appropriate. We don’t all have type 1 poker straight hair. But again I understand it’s easier to straighten type 3a hair than type 4.

I do not live in the US and I am not American. There have not been centuries of widespread racism in this country. I do have awareness of the degradation, enslavement and disenfranchisement of black people. As I said in my last post, I don’t say slavery didn’t exist in this country but I cannot be accountable for what has happened in the same way, especially as my ancestors had no part in it, as the Germans today cannot be held accountable for the Holocaust. And I did not vote for fucking Brexit with the nasty racism, which has raised its ugly head in this country.

For those saying Britain didn't benefit that much from slavery, what about the industrial revolution? Who do you think picked all the cotton that was woven in the "dark satanic mills" of cottonopolis (aka Manchester), for example? It doesn't exactly grow in rusholme and fallowfield!

In fact, although she never did, preferring to focus on diplomacy, apparently queen Victoria mulled joining in the American revolution on the side of the confederate states, and that was one of the reasons why.

I don't know if this is relevant to this discussion.

It may be.

When my oldest boys were little I used to do their hair in braids in various styles. I used coloured bands and sometimes beads.
It was seen as perfectly normal for little boys to have quite elaborate hairstyles. It was either that or bald.

I don't see it anymore. I think its a real shame. I feel we have lost something. Little boys look like little men with shaved heads.

I live in London. Its very mixed where I am.

Does anyone still do their baby/toddler boys hair in puffs/braids/plaits?

There have not been centuries of widespread racism in this country.

😂😂 Are you having a laugh?!

There is a lot if sticking head in the sand here. And also a lot of ‘Well I can’t be held responsible as a white petson for society’s predjudices’. And worse ‘I, as a white person, have never seen someone discriminated against for their hair so it must not exists.’

I think a lot of people truly do not understand what a lot of black natural hair is like. A lot of people with black hair cannot just wake up and brush their hair into a bun like a European. You may have seen people in your school who wore simple ponytails (not chemically relaxed), but often that it a process as well that would take hours. Most black natural hair simply does not style that way even if it looks ‘simple’. Even just washing black hair is hard. Often then there are lots of products required, then a hot comb, and having to sleep in a bonnet at night. It takes HOURS!

It is all done to ‘mimic’ Euro hair. Because society (Even in Britain) often tells black women they need to have more Euro hair. There is measurable discrimination against black people in the UK, overt and subliminal as well. In job interviews, hiring practices, professional settings etc, many black women feel they need to style their hair in a Euro Fashion. Black natural hair simply does not do this without 4+ hours of prep.

I think a lot of people need to actually speak to a black woman and understand how hard it is to conform to Euro standards of beauty at a minimum...

I have only really learnt about racism and race relations in the past decade +

I used to say ‘ooh the UK isn’t that racist’

I have to thank Chinese and Jamaican lift shares who fast put me right on that

I think white people can easily live in a bubble and unless we are told and read it we can blithely go on our happy way and not have a clue

zoe
Why, after millennia of degradation, enslavement, disenfranchisement, and worse
so this all went on for 1000s of years and only for the non-whites
a lot of exaggeration there. The British empire only lasted for circa 300 years

Zoe
No I’m not having a laugh. I was surprised myself when I saw things on tv, which were contrary to my understanding. I came from the POV that black people had been degraded in this country by all for hundreds of years. What I discovered and what I have since read actually really surprised me. If you can link me to written articles to the contrary, I will be very happy to read them. I’m trying to educate myself. Not denigrate anyone else.

MrsDV - not that I've seen recently, but I remember DM, who was a teacher, telling me that she had boy/girl twins in her class. The family had moved here from Nigeria and the mother had subsequently been sent to prison for something. The father used to take the children to see her every weekend and she would braid both their hair for the week ahead. That would have been early 1990's!

The main point I don't understand about cultural appropriation is the assertion that white women are celebrated for being edgy while black women are berated and fired from jobs.

It seems to have come from an article about one of the Kardashian's wearing braids to Coachella, while a black highschool student was expelled for wearing them to school.

A black woman would not be barred from Coachella for wearing braids. The Kardashian's would not be allowed to wear braids in a professional setting.

Show me a case where a black woman has been excluded from a music event for wearing braids and a white woman has been allowed to wear them in a professional setting, and I will admit that cultural appropriation is a thing.

I am not going to deny racism and double standards exist in this country.
That doesn't mean I am comfortable with people behaving as if USA issues are the same as UK issues.
So far all the examples (apart from Little Mix and I would put money on her being mixed race) are American.

Black women are expected to conform to certain standards but a white woman wouldn't get away with dreads whilst a black woman would be turned away from the workplace here.

Coachella is American. Kim Kardashian is American.
They are all flipping Americans.

We have issues in the UK but if we take on the American history as our own we are being ridiculous.

I am not including Slavery in that. The British had a great deal to do with slavery.

Zoewashburne

"So white women, wear your hair how you want, but to disregard the challenges black women face to make their hair ‘acceptable’ is not just factually wrong, it’s downright mean. "

Where are these white women doing that?
Honestly I dont call out people for their race and blame them for the fact I look like a boy with no make up and have to spend an hour on my hair in the morning because its frizzy and volumeless.
ESPECIALLY when they haven't actually said anything

Another point, braid are a protective, practical, hard wearing style. That's why black women favour them. They protect the hair from becoming knotted and damaged whilst keeping it tidy.

Do you know who else thought the same? The Egyptians, the Romans and the celts, and I dare say, when dutch milk maids wore braids, they also did it because it was practical.

A style does not become less practical and protective because it is done on caucasian hair. My daughter has waist length, 3A hair, prone to dryness on the ends and tangling, like all curly hair, caucasian or ethnic.

I braid her hair to protect it from tangles and damage, usually just one or two french or dutch braids which last a few days but if we're going on holiday and she's gonna be jumping in and out of the pool, I slather her hair in coconut oil and we do box braids. I'm not doing it to steal from black culture, I'm doing to avoid the tears when it comes to brushing out her hair after a day in the pool and the hysterics when we get home and she learns she'll have to have six inches chopped off because of all the damage caused by sun, salt water and chlorine and the tangles.

A protective style is protective on all hair types, though some might need more protection than others. Fine, curly, long hair types all need extra care.

I accept that black women faced more pressure to adhere to western beauty standards in the workplace, which is wrong, but it still doesn't take away the fact that braids are practical and protective on many hair types.

So far all the examples (apart from Little Mix and I would put money on her being mixed race) are American.

Afaik, the woman from Little Mix is as white as you get but in that photo with the reddish dreads, she is made up to look quite like she is mixed race. Which is actually a bit disturbing.

@Mummyoflittledragon - But relaxed hair at school is fashion statement... women wore their hair naturally and had careers... There have not been centuries of widespread racism in this country.
Remember that you are speaking from the point of view of a non black woman (I assume). So HOW can you say these things when you are not the one experiencing it? Speak to black people and hear what they think about racism. If you haven't experienced it, you're merely an observer - or a sympathiser even.

I got a little emotional when I read that I relaxed my hair as a fashion statement. Most young black girls and their moms do so because it is nigh impossible to juggle life, studies and spending hours on hair. To plait your hair, you would have to have it done every week by someone who knows what they are doing. My mum marched my sister and I off to the salon to sort things out. With relaxed hair, you put the chemicals in and you're good for 6 to 10 weeks. And yay! I also get to swish my hair around and run my comb through like a white girl! Check me out!
Again, you observe - you might be missing on some of the detail.

About women with natural hair with careers, all I can say is HA! Maybe a few bold women dared to go around with their natural hair. Career women in the 70s looked more like these images in reality - with a perm or a wig.

@olliegarchy99 - The British empire only lasted for circa 300 years And what do you think was happening in the british colonies all over the world? I guess they were just drinking tea and making friends.

@ZoeWashburne
You may have seen people in your school who wore simple ponytails (not chemically relaxed), but often that it a process as well that would take hours. Most black natural hair simply does not style that way even if it looks ‘simple’ I gave a detailed explanation of what it takes to look 'normal'... A 'simple' neat ponytail is never simple. That is why my kids can never go to school in a simple ponytail - I WOHM and cannot afford to spend hours in the morning to sort a ponytail - every morning. That is why we plait it all - it's not because it's cuter, it's so that I can do it on a Saturday and they can have the same hair all week. Obviously, I make sure I make it cute for them and so that they love their natural hair .

I just pray they keep loving it and it's supported when they get into Uni and into the world of work.

Someone asked upthread what happens to 4c hair if it is ‘left alone’. After washing it forms tight ringlets, not like the thickness of a straw, but the thickness of the 0 on this page. They then form dreadlocks. The all day process then begins to comb them out.

Insideoutside
I’m sorry. I didn’t meant to offend you in anything I said. I was brought up in a time when chemical straightening was a relatively new thing so children didn’t wear their straightened when I was at school. The girls back then had basic styles, finger combed hair, basic plaits. It hadn’t occurred to me that now the process is readily available, parents would take little girls to have their hair straightened. I’m actually pretty surprised because the chemicals can burn - not to mention may be bad for female health - and little girls would have to sit very still. I saw it as peer pressure in teens so I apologise.

As for the other point, i was responding to a previous poster so taking my one point out of context may seem as though I was trying to whitewash history when I was not. And I was also comparing the widespread racism in the US, which the former slave owners plantation owners I have read helped to incite as per my post upthread. During the period in the 19th century when we had open borders until 1905, Britain prided itself on being a political and religious sanctuary for all. That is not to say there wasn’t racism. That would be terribly naive and stupid of me. What I am saying is that not everyone was racist.

@Mummyoflittledragon
I'm not offended at all. It's great to see that at least one more person understands a little bit more. Can you imagine how life would be if more people understood? That's the kind of society I'm hoping my kids grow up in. So, thank you

@insideoutsider thanks for the post- I completely agree- I was referring to a previous poster who was saying that Black girls in her school 40 years ago ‘simply’ brushed their hair into pony tails so there was no need to relax hair.

And for people who think millennia for African enslavement is an exaduration, there is countless publication about the systematic enslavement of Africans by Europeans going back to Herodotus who wrote about the requirement of ‘Abyssinians’ every year for enslavement. African enslavement was so widespread in medieval and Byzantine Europe that the Catholic Church made a proclamation banning Christian slaves (Non-Christian slaves were ‘fine’ so many African slave trading continued ). The slave trade didn’t start with the transatlantic salve trade and the British Empire at all. Africans have been enslaved by Europeans for millennia- that’s a fact.

tringly are you sure?
I don't know much about Little Mix (nothing) but I goggled her and I wouldn't have thought she was as 'white and you can get'.

But, like I say, don't know anything about them.

I have had another google. I think she would have probably mentioned it by now if she was mixed race.
So she probably is white.