To be irritated by the rules around adult/ child library books?

[hophap]

In our library any book not expressly a children’s book cannot be borrowed by a child.

However any art book with actual artists/ pictures in is adult. Local history books are adult. Music books. Maps. Basically anything not bought for cartoon/ curriculum support and whoever is buying certainly aims at the younger end of the child readers.

Is it really unbelievable an under 18 wants to read some of the adult books? Totally fine if I need to give permission/ they charge adult fines (though as most the books are generally around the same price...).

My daughter has been barred from getting a book on an artist she’s studying, I then went to say I’d give permission. Nope. The book is not dissimilar to what you’d find in most school libraries. Being out with a card or sufficient ID I could t get it either.

What is the logic behind adult/ children books being divided and able: older children being confined to kids books? Schools don’t worry if a book is appropriate by not a kids book. The library rules actually mean that yr 6 can’t get books out the library they read at school (able group- classics). By GCSE many books in the kids study area are totally babyish. I understand maybe some books require adult guidance, but surely this is solved with parental permission. I remember as a child having a green stamp on my ticket to show that my parents allowed me to borrow any book.

"If a 13 or 14 year old girl wanted to get out an erotic novel aimed at adults, I would only permit them to borrow it with the approval of my line manager. That's how it would work at most libraries, I think."

What about attempts by children to access material on sexual health? Or gender or sexuality equality? Or Christianity?

Do you prevent women from borrowing books their husbands don't approve if?

The usual claim by librarians is that they are a bastion of freedom providing books to people who are prevented from accessing them by oppressors. Interesting to hear that you're actually just supporting power.

So teenagers who try to borrow a book that is basically very much an adult novel - want and expect - staff to say, 'Does your Mum know you're getting that out? Is she in the library? Okay in that case, I'll check with her.' (NB if the teenager knows that Mum would not be okay with the book, she'll probably get her adult big (married?) sister to borrow the book for her.

Christ. You all need to look in the mirror. I hope to God none of you ever get jobs in the NHS. You'd be the people telling everyone who's been in for a pregnancy test.

My Father took me every week, would sign out books he thought I was ready for as his own. It is a silly rule.

"Please come to the library, where we'll check all your reading with the patriarchy and act as narcs for the big bloke from the mosque. But don't worry boys, we're only checking the girls' reading".

Note that every example Harriet cites is about girls borrowing books that their parents disapprove of; it's not a problem for boys, clearly. Do you think this is progressive? It looks like just pandering. I bet you make sure there aren't leaflets about women's rights around the building, too.

The community libraries in my city don't have RFID security

Really? Which city?

I help in a school library. We mostly have teen fiction but some of those, whilst being great books, are really not suitable for younger readers. I would lend such a book to a young student but only if their parents give permission. It's age-dependent, nothing to do with being a boy or a girl.

We don't have RFID either.

Do ye all pre read every single book you give to your children? I don't have the time. On the other hand I'd prefer if my daughters first introduction to rape wasnt reading about it from a male fantasy point of view in books meant as entertainment. I don't agree with censorship but since books have ZERO information about content it's very easy for a very young person to read about anything. I'm a bit that people don't care if children read about things that they wouldn't be allowed watch in a cinema. Just because it's written down doesn't make it worthy. All kinds of shite can get written in a book. I devoured books as a child and early teen and just got sick of casual rape scenes being thrown in everywhere.

Yay where I live libraries are thriving so much they have just decided to stop fining anyone
The idiot nice man from the council has actually stated on record that if you don't actually return the books at all you will still not be fined, or even have to pay for the book

Ugh. I hate this so much. This is what happens when you don't have professional librarians working in the actual libraries, which is the case in most public libraries now - even the ones that aren't being run by volunteers. Fully trained professional staff with autonomy to create sensible collection access plans would go a long way to solve problems like this.

Some mediation of some content is not a terrible thing - eight year olds borrowing adult graphic novels is an excellent example - but there are ways to handle this without blanket censorship. (Librarian btw, but I don't ever deal with fiction and work in HE.)

I'm a bit hmm that people don't care if children read about things that they wouldn't be allowed watch in a cinema

The examples being quoted are about 14 and 15 year olds. The basis for film classification is moral panic from before the what Larkin described as the invention of sex, but today a 15 certificate is only withheld (ie, an 18 certificate imposed) for strong, realistic, sexualised violence or imitable suicide. The vast majority of films that were certified at 18 on release in the 1980s or 1990s are now at 15 when resubmitted, and a lot of films that were certified at AA and then at 15 are now at 12A. I'd some convincing that there were significant numbers of books in public libraries with content comparable with what would today not be "permissible" at 15 in a cinema, but even if I'm wrong, I'd take a lot of convincing that librarians know with any reliability which those books are amongst the thousands on their shelves.

I'd also take a great deal of convincing that the narrative above, about making sure that books are approved by conservative Muslim parents is remotely about keeping strong, sexualised violence from the eyes of young children. I wonder if the library Harriet keeps would lend a copy of Midnight's Children to a 15 year old? What about Oranges are not the only Fruit? Both have been intermittently GCSE set works, studied by 14 or 15 year olds. Neither contains anything remotely problematic.

25 year olds don't bother me. My 10 year old picking up Lolita because she likes the name and the cover bothers me. Lolita is no bother because I had the " pleasure" of reading it as a 13 year old and know I don't want her to read it yet/ ever but i don't always know. I don't want to restrict her to children's books either but since there's no age guidelines and I don't have the spare time to pre-read everything it's actually quite hard to know what to allow. She loves reading but is too young to deal with adult themes. A 15 year old can pretty much fend for themselves

• 15 year olds don't bother me!! ( I'm not that bad that I'd censor my 25 year olds reading!!)

I used to work in a library and what Merryhobknobs said is true .
I used to override every rule there was and luckily had a boss who totally approved .

If parents have concerns about what books their child is taking out the library the parents should go to the library with them.

There shouldn't be arbitrary rules about kids taking out books just in case someone's Mum gets offended by it. It's not the library's job to supervise your teen.

People locally here complained about 'noisy' teens hanging out in the library at weekends. They were chatty, but it wasn't a rabble. The library introduced a rule whereby no more than 5 teens were allowed in unaccompanied. So the kids went to a cafe to use computers there instead. They also complained about the toddler group on a Wednesday so they went elsewhere and the knitting group that hired a corner.

And now they are up in arms because the library is closing because the number of people using it dropped.

What's the librarians job? To place books on a shelf? Teens can read what they like. 10 year olds cannot. I'm not some easily offended " mum" if I don't want my 10 year old reading rape scenes written by a middle age man. Of course I go the library with her but because books have zero guidance and I'm not some all knowing being, some guidance might be nice. Was I delighted she was reading about abusive fathers in a Jacqueline Wilson book when she was 7? No. But now I know to read reviews on Amazon before I purchase on Amazon and just avoid the library.

I think the point about teenage boys is interesting. They read rather less than the girls. They mainly come in for books relating to study, to use computers and to borrow manga/anime fiction. The anime is badged/classified for teenage books. By and large they are not coming in to borrow adult popular novels.

I have also had the experience of fathers asking me about the content of children's fiction to see whether it was suitable for his son. One Dad was particularly keen that his boy didn't read books about magic, but only borrowed more realist narratives.

The libraries where I work are caring places and they are extremely well used. The fact that there are some restrictions on who can borrow what certainly doesn't drive people away.

Anyone who thinks that our duties relate purely to putting books on a shelf doesn't seem very well-informed.

I'm surprised about the amount of aggression directed towards (poorly paid, hard working) library staff. We do encourage reading and provide a welcoming space for the community.

Oh and for clarifcation. More and more of our community libraries are getting self-issue machines so the city's stock is getting tagged. But there aren't security gates apart from in the main library. So people can walk out with the books...

One Dad was particularly keen that his boy didn't read books about magic, but only borrowed more realist narratives.

So you set yourself up as the magical realism gatekeepers?

So when idiots want to ban Harry Potter, you'll be cheering them on?

Anyone who thinks that our duties relate purely to putting books on a shelf doesn't seem very well-informed.

No. You're doing the much more disreputable job of acting as arbitrary censors on behalf of religious conservatives. Well done!

In our library books taken out in the children’s cards don’t get charged for being overdue or damaged so I imagine that might be the reason ‘adult’ books can’t be taken out on them

I thought librarians had a widereaching job with a keen interest in books and encouraging reading. But from reading here I'm not sure what a librarians job is. It's not to guide people to suitable books and it's not to stop little girls reading about horrible sexual abuse. So I'm assuming it's to place books on shelves.

Make a written complaint?

I'm not a religious conservative though. But I appreciate that you must be coming at this from a different viewpoint than I am. I don't believe that people of suitable age should have their reading restricted because of religious readings. Also I love if books were filled with realistic or even female centric sex scenes that my children could read in a few years. I'm not against sex in books or anything. I just deplore the wide ranging sexual violence and don't wish my daughter to read that until she has a better understanding of sex and the world. Again though I would support some rules for children, teens of 15 or so should be free to read as they wish.

I do appreciate that lot of women who post on Mumsnet hate Muslims and say this is because they are feminist.

However, whatever your feelings are about religion, I'd question whether letting a 13 year old girl access Fifty Shades of Grey is going to actually do a great deal for her empowerment. (Or for a 13 year old boy's understanding of how they can be a good and loving and respectful partner.) On my current patch, I'm not going to let it happen on my watch.

So if a religious conservative librarian refused to lend out copies of Harry Potter on the grounds of "Witchcraft", you'd be OK with it?

This is the "good censorship", done by enlightened and empowering liberals for the good of the people, versus nasty bad censorship done by fascists to serve oppression. It's censorship. The end.

I do appreciate that lot of women who post on Mumsnet hate Muslims

Ah, and a quick flash of the "you're all racists" card.