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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think my step-sis should pay the money back?

121 replies

Tainbri · 18/02/2018 10:31

My Step sister borrowed a large sum of money from my step mum (her mother) and my dad which she and her DH used as a deposit for their property. The property as far as I know is in their joint names. There was no formal loan agreement put in place because it was "family" but she has (up until her mum died) been paying interest on the money. Anyway her mum died last year and now my dad wants the money paid back. Step sis won't even talk about it and says it was her mum's money so now it's hers. Obviously morally I think she should pay it back, but legally do you think my dad has a case given there's no written agreement? He doesn't want to waste more money on solicitors if he doesn't stand a chance.

OP posts:
DarkDarkNight · 18/02/2018 11:46

If the situation was reversed would you be in a rush to pay back your stepmum if your dad had died? It was an agreement between your step sister and your step mum. I would leave it there. She has lost her mum, do you really want to sour relations?

There was no will, so now any inheritance has gone to your dad, she is very unlikely to get anything else as it will be used on your dad's care and he can leave everything else to you.

Winteriscoming18 · 18/02/2018 11:48

How long ago she her dm pass away?

RandomMess · 18/02/2018 11:48

@Allthewaves why do you think she doesn't have to repay it?? Legally I think it's enforceable and the council will view it as deprivation of assets - they are very hot on the ways and means families try to get out of paying for care Home fees.

Unfortunately the step sister has made repayments so the debt is legally enforceable as she as demonstrated acceptance that she owes the money... without a written agreement stating it was only interest payable without return of the capital
She's probably worse off Sad

FranticallyPeaceful · 18/02/2018 11:48

So your sister has been left nothing and you still want her to pay money to add to what you will get from your old frail dad who has just had a stroke. You sound delightful

NailsNeedDoing · 18/02/2018 11:49

She borrowed it on the understanding that it was to be paid back, so of course she should pay it back! I'm really surprised that some people are saying she shouldn't.

People don't usually get an inheritance from their parents until both their parents have died, just because her mum decided to marry someone else doesn't mean that that she should get an inheritance before he mothers husband has died. Her mum should have left a will if she wanted it done differently, but assuming they lent joint money, then at the very least your step sis should be paying back the half of it that wasn't her mothers.

Legally there might not be much you can do, but morally this woman is doing a horrible, selfish thing.

SheSparkles · 18/02/2018 11:50

@RandomMess, I hope you’re last comment about ignoring the elderly frail man wasn’t directed at me, because if you re-read my comments you’ll see that I have very deliberately only offered a possible scenario, but not an opinion as to the repayment of the capital.

Tink2007 · 18/02/2018 11:55

@ElsieMc Yes, I just saw that it was given on the understanding it was a loan so very different to my situation.

BrendasUmbrella · 18/02/2018 11:57

If the money was her mothers - from selling an asset she owned or from her own savings - he has no right to expect it back. If the money was his/jointly theirs then you might be able to pursue it.

RandomMess · 18/02/2018 11:59

@SheSparkles no I wasn't! I agree that could be a scenario and an absolute bugger that it wasn't put in writing!

DeathStare · 18/02/2018 12:02

DeathStare it doesn't sound like there is alot of money but there is a need for this elderly man to be cared for. It was joint money and step daughter needs to address this, she may not be in a position to pay it all back but she can't and shouldn't ignore it

And THAT is why everyone should have a will. Sounds like the daughter believed that she would be left some money from her mum that would mean this didn't need to be repaid. This may well be as a result of conversations they had had.

The step-dad meanwhile thought that there would be enough money left to pay for his care needs.

Now they are left with a situation that isn't legally clear and which could be sorted through employing lawyers and going through the Courts, but that may well cost a very large proportion of the money we are talking about. And regardless of the final outcome, whoever looses will feel like they've been shafted and like the mum/wife's wishes haven't been carried out. And the family will probably be permanently divided.

And it all could have been avoided if she's just made a will

SheSparkles · 18/02/2018 12:06

@RandomMess 😊

Snowysky20009 · 18/02/2018 12:07

OP as you can see there are conflicting information on here. Your best best is to see a solicitor, not take information from strangers, who may or may not know the legal side of things.

DeathStare · 18/02/2018 12:07

People don't usually get an inheritance from their parents until both their parents have died, just because her mum decided to marry someone else doesn't mean that that she should get an inheritance before he mothers husband has died

I don't think that's necessarily true. Suppose person X and person Y are married and have one child. Person X has a million pounds, either that they have earned or that they have inherited. Person Y has nothing. Person X dies without leaving a will - no matter the money will all go to person Y who will be raising their child (and it can be assumed leaving any inheritance to that child).

Person Y then remarries Person Z who also has no money. Person Y then dies without leaving a will.

In my opinion it would have been a fairly reasonable expectation of the child that the money would be coming to them - especially if they had had conversations with either parent that indicated that.

DerelictWreck · 18/02/2018 12:08

If she used it as part of her deposit there HAS to be a paper trail - banks require a letter stating whether it is a gift or loan for exactly this reason!

Original poster
Tainbri · 18/02/2018 12:09

Thanks everyone. It's a horrible situation and one I'd rather not be in!

OP posts:
RandomMess · 18/02/2018 12:10

@DeathStare I know Sad what a bloody mess!! Even if Mum had gifted her the loan it would have to be proven it was her Mum's money not joint! The savings could all have been the Dad's but because they both wanted to help out her DD they loaned/gifted the money.

SheSparkles · 18/02/2018 12:11

I totally understand the Dad fretting about paying for care, however if he does not own property and his financial assets are below £16k, there is a statutory obligation on the local authority to provide him with suitable care. As long as OP doesn’t sign anything to say she will fund any shortfall, the local authority cannot come after anyone for payment.
This means however that a person will be cared for in a home of the authority’s choosing, which may not be what they’d choose themselves, but they will be looked after and housed, if a care home is what’s needed.

I received this advice from my solicitor within the last 2 weeks so it’s as up to date as it can be

RandomMess · 18/02/2018 12:13

@Tainbri - I feel awful for you!!! Perhaps once you have looked through all the financial information you can make a clearer decision?

Was it a small enough amount if SS carries on paying interest it will cover care fees so she can hopefully keep it on the assumption it was gifted? Or perhaps it was too much that there is no way on earth the council won't spot it Sad

grannytomine · 18/02/2018 12:13

The trouble on relying on the local authority is that what they provide isn't always great. I can't comment on all authorities but I do know that what they did for 82 year old aunt with dementia was pitiful.

Quartz2208 · 18/02/2018 12:14

Surely if he doesn’t get it the local authority would fund his care anyway on in effect it would go to the council so I can see her point

Also I am confused as to the agreement was she paying it back or just the interest

maddening · 18/02/2018 12:14

Is there any way of establishing how much her mother brought to the marriage with your dad - if that was s more than the lump sum not yet repaid by her daughter I would be inclined to leave it as she is not getting any other benefit.

HeckyPeck · 18/02/2018 12:14

If the situation was reversed would you be in a rush to pay back your stepmum if your dad had died?

I can't imagine stealing off my elderly widowed step mum who needs the money to pay for her care.

Hopefully step sis will see sense and realise paying back (even if it's just your dad's 'half') is the right thing to do.

OliviaBenson · 18/02/2018 12:15

When getting a mortgage if a deposit is being given from elsewhere banks usually need clarification as to whether it was a gift or a loan. They don't usually like loans as it affects affordability. Your dad and step Mum would have had to confirm the nature of the money- gift or loan. If gift then I think there's no chance of seeing it again.

I think you need to write this one off op.

NewYearNewMe18 · 18/02/2018 12:16

I would email your step sister and explain that the loan debt didn't die with her Mum as it was joint savings and the council will be looking into his finances as care Home fees are on the cards

^^ this I'm afraid is bollox. That's the trouble with the internet, a lot of people with uniformed opinions rather than any legal facts. Whether it was a joint account or not, Step mum had an agree with daughter. There ends the obligation, seeing as nothing is in writing. An unwitnessed contract, verbal or written, is worthless. Everything becomes hearsay. Daughter could equally say 'mum gave me the money' of 'mum told me not to bother paying back'. The fact the money was loaned from a joint account is utterly irrelevant.

DeathStare · 18/02/2018 12:17

Thanks everyone. It's a horrible situation and one I'd rather not be in!

But you're not in it OP If you get involved it's because you are choosing to be involved. It's a mess, but it's not your mess. Stay out of it.