On the whole gender self-identity issue . .

[Justmyownself]

I keep hearing the phrase

"Gender is just an artificial social construct"

Well so is age. Humans invented time, and the very concept of an "age". So if we must accept gender as being a social construct then surely next in the firing line is "age".

Could we now be any "age" we identify with?

If I am biologically a 25 year old, could I not "identify" as being 20? And demand that people use that number when referring to my "age"? Also, if I were biologically a 15 year old, but felt older, could I "identift" as 18 so that I could drink alcohol, live on my own, drive a car, etc?

It seems that it's entirely illogical to believe in gender as a social construct, while ignoring the obvious issue relating to "age"

Any thoughts?

Curious. If you believe gender doesnt exist then try becoming pregnant without sperm.

Human reproduction is about sex, not gender.

Time and Tide wait for no man, or woman, self-identified or otherwise.

"Curious. If you believe gender doesnt exist then try becoming pregnant without sperm."

You're talking about sex, not gender as a social construct.

The lifespan of a fly and a tortoise are irrelevant. They both age, and their age can be counted in the same units if you like. Time is independent of humans.

I feel about 96 today in comparison to my Gran who actually is 96, whereas my Mother is 68 but feels much more fit and well than I do.

On the basis that I feel old and decrepit, I would like to collect my pension please.

I think your intellect may be a social construct x

NB I actually do have physical health problems, not just imaginary ones if that helps!??!

Your logic is flawed. Humans invented ways to MEASURE time. Your numerical age is based on the number of (solar) years you've been alive, ie the number of times the Earth has fully orbited the Sun in your lifetime. Years and days are based on the cycle of the Earth orbiting the Sun. Hours/minutes/seconds/7-day week/12-month year etc are measurements invented by humans.

What you're talking about is the stereotyping of certain age groups (eg young people like clubbing, old people like classical music). That is socially constructed and you can feel free not to identify with whatever stereotypes are assigned to your age group. However you being 27 (or whatever) years old is a fact (the Earth has orbited the Sun 27 times since you were born).

Some of the responses here show the lack of understanding people have about gender, sex and the terms male/female.

Hmm?

But a strong current strand of argument states that gender is a fundamental, immutable, while sex is a social construct.

Curious. If you believe gender doesnt exist then try becoming pregnant without sperm I think other posters have covered this but Huh?

UpABitLate That'll be down to semantics. Team Gender co-opting Team Sex's definitions to prove gender is the real deal.

A bit like there being women and cis women nowadays!

(Please let that last line be read the right way )

"While it is true that gender and sex are different things, and that gender is indeed a social construct, sex isn’t the Ultimate Biological Reality that transphobes make it out to be. There’s nothing intrinsically male about XY chromosomes, testosterone, body hair, muscle mass or penises. If an alien civilization found earth, they wouldn’t look at a person with a penis and say “Oh, that must be a male, sex based on genitalia is the One Universal Constant.” Sex, like gender, is indeed socially constructed and can be changed.

If sex isn’t the All Mighty Binary Universal Constant that some people think it is, why do they place so much importance on it? The easy answer is that it gives them an excuse to misgender and exclude trans people, and specifically trans women. They can pretend they’re just standing up for science, but they’re really just saying that trans women aren’t fully women and that trans men aren’t fully men. People need to start learning about what sex really is and what social constructs really are. People need to stop misusing biology and spreading ignorance and misunderstanding. People need to stop looking for excuses for their anti-trans bigotry. All of this needs to stop and it needs to stop now."

From here first one on google

Sex as a social construct and not a biological fact that applies to all mammals and most animals. David Attenborough needs to take note, and all school biology books need rewriting.

This one says that gender is also a social construct - I have read plenty saying otherwise. Like I said , first on google, if interested you can have a look.

Oh! The Alien argument! Somehow the inherent flaws in that are so bloody obvious...

Shall we start with not all life on Earth is male/female? We already understand what non binary is, FFS!

Just , getting pregnant has nothing to do with gender, but everything to do with your sex, the chromosomes you were born with. So "...try getting pregnant without sperm", as you said, bears no relevance to gender, but to human biology, where members of the male sex are the ones who have XY chromosomes, have gonads and produce sperm (irrespective of whichever gender they identify as), and members of the female sex are the ones who have XX chromosomes, have ovaries which produce eggs and who have the capacity to gestate babies. Intersex conditions exist of course, but these are extremely rare. And where as not all members of the respective sexes are able to perform the functions listed above, whether because of age or illness, these are the primary sex characteristics for each sex. Gender is irrelevant.

Time is a measurement.
Gender is an attempt at categorisation.
Animals do age. They may not measure the passing of time but their bodies certainly age as a result of the passing of time.
I don't think your argument stands up.

Oh!!!! I clicked on your link after I commented.

Not sure I could read anything by "Autostraddle" and accept it as definitive. It's all just opinion and, as I said, semantics!

upabitlate

Fucking hell!

Insane

Ha! I haven't RTFT, when I started my biology lesson, I was 8th to respond, but a bit of bum-wiping and spill-mopping got in the way, and you know, the next thing, the thread has moved on to its second page. And that, Just , illustrates the passing of time as very real and not made up.

How's that 6th form debate team coming along Op?

Not to get of topic folks. But I'm more interested in the idea of "age" and the idea that a person could "self identify".

This is becoming a gender/trans debate.

Would you accept a person self identifing their own age, in the same way that you would (or wouldn't) with gender?

There's loads about sex being a social construct - that was just the first on google. It's an idea which is circulating quite strongly.

It's an important step in separating male / female from anything to do with bodies / reproduction. If sex is a social construct then penis can be female.

No its becoming a gender /sex debate

Because of the fatel flaw in your OP

It is an interesting idea self identifying your age...but your birth certificate would work against you

Fatal obviously

I would like to self identify as someone who can type

I think most people have an internal sense of their age which may well not correspond to their actual age, and that it is a strongly felt internal feeling, and also that many of us can totally relate to that feeling.

Also, when you feel younger than you are, you have the advantage of having been that age, so you do actually know how it feels.

I honestly think there is an argument there - it's all a bit arbitrary, say people retire at 65, some will be clapped out by 55, some will well able to carry on til 70 or further.

You can see when people have had a "hard life" it literally ages them, diet has a lot to do with it + exercise, things like smoking, drugs, drink... The number that we put on does not necessarily relate to the age of that person's body and brain, IYSWIM.

So yes I have a lot of time for this.

If it happened you'd just end up with dodgy men trying to ID their way into classrooms though so, there's that.

I'd imagine that aliens arriving on earth would be rather like explorers and researchers here. They would observe, take specimens and study. They would see the many species on earth with sexual dimorphism and even if their own species was not organised into two sexes for reproduction I doubt it would take long to figure out that it's that way for humans.

If they only picked up male or female human specimens they'd also see pretty soon that their collection would all be dead pretty quickly, which presumably would be disappointing. I doubt they would know or care what their specimens think in their heads.

Do trans activists really forget that they have male and female parents in order to exist, or is it a sort of wilful blindness?

I'm asthmatic. A spirometry test suggests that my lungs are currently identifying as a 63 year old woman. Although I am 38. (No history of smoking and drugs for me but perhaps the exercise was to blame? )

Would you accept a person self identifing their own age, in the same way that you would (or wouldn't) with gender?

The reason it is becoming a gender debate is because of the flawed analogy you used! But to answer your question, I am as likely to accept someone self identifying as a llama or a duck, maybe even as Elizabeth I, as I am anything age or gender based.

So sex is our biology and chromosomes etc. So I’m xx and have a vagina and breasts and the ability to produce offspring with an xy. BUT doesn’t our biology and sex also influence our gender? So in simple terms... My husband is xy and ecause of that he has more testosterone than me... perhaps that affects his moods and behaviour and in turn it affects things he likes and does. Perhaps that explains why he’s not as maternal as me and doesn’t get emotional as me. I do not believe that gender is fully in our control like some people like to suggest “I identify with female so I’m a woman” what does that even mean?! How can you identify with being something you’ve never been. Perhaps the answer is to change the category name to “sex”... you have to put what chromosomes you have. So we have “xx toilets” and “xx 100metre sprint” at the olympics. You cannot change your genes. On your passport are you xx or xy or other?

Getting back to the age thing. It would just be as mad as the gender thing. I wouldn’t be happy for a 50 year old pedo identifying as a 6 year old to gain access to their spaces. Just as I’m not happy with an xy human gaining access to top shop changing rooms with young xx humans.