To want the Gideons to get the #### out of my child's school

[PatriarchyPersonified]

As I have made clear on threads on here in the past, I am an atheist (I'm actually a strong anti-theist) and I believe in the secularisation of society. (i.e religion can be there for people who want it but it should be irrelevant to anybodies day to day life unless they want to make it relevant.)

I believe that children should be taught about religions in school, as part of a comprehensive RE syllabus, and particularly about Christianity, as I believe from a cultural and historical perspective, it is impossible to fully understand the history and culture of the UK without reference to the bible. I would feel the same way about the Qu'ran if I lived in an Arab country btw.

What I am not happy about is that my oldest DC (12) has just had the bloody Gideon Society hosting an assembly in their school and dishing out Bibles! School is not the place for this. There is a reason why religious groups always target schools and prisons, its where the easy targets are.

It is certainly worth teaching the difference between faith and empirical fact. Although I'd rather they kept creationism as part of religous studies and not in biology!

Plus as I outlined before there are actual tangible and measurable benefits to faith. I for one would encourage them in children for no other reason than that.

CritEqual

What tangible benefits are there to faith? Do they outweigh the fact that it's not true?

I posted them up above but I'll breifly mention them here. Faith has a positive effect on those suffering from mental illness, particularly depression, and those who attend church regularly are less likely to commit suicide. So yeah I'd happily assert that extra people walking the earth instead of succumbing to mental illness and suicide outweigh the fact that in your view it isn't true.

For the avoidance of doubt no one religion holds a monoply on these benefits.

CritEqual

Its not my opinion that it's not true. It's an objective and testable claim.

Are you honestly the kind of person who thinks it's ok to lie to children because it's 'what's best for them'?

Massive over reaction from the OP.

I am always amazed at how much some 'atheists' froth and rant and obsess over religion. They claim to hate it/disbelieve etc, yet they can't stop talking about it.

Considering they have 'no interest' in religion, they seem consumed with it. (As I said, some not all........)

What makes you think atheists have no interest in religion?

The Professor of Theology at the University of Exeter is an atheist!

Oh dear, there isn't and has not been an experiment run disproves the existence of god or buddha or the tao or whatever. So you cannot make the knowledge claim that any or all of these things don't exist. You cannot really assert that as objective truth.

You CAN say the most rational position is skepticism in the absence of evidence for any or all of those things, and that's where I advise you stand on this debate as that is where you are strongest. As by the same token I cannot present you with verifiable proof for the existence of what I believe in.

Furthermore if I spread something I earnestly believe is true I am not lying. If I am in error I am spreading misinformation to lie requires intent to decieve. I guess if you tilt your head and squint a bit you could argue I am spreading a lie, but I am still not being deceptive.

When it comes to religion I find it is healthiest to place it in the realm of aesthetics, as we can still have meaningful conversations about things that have subjective value. However no position on the axis of religous or non-religious belief has proof.

Some atheist if they are fascinated by religion LOL. I think that's called denial!

Black it’s not the atheists paying millions to put their literature everywhere and getting unopposed access to a captive audience. You’re kind of making an ass of yourself with a claim like that.

CritEqual

The old 'you can't prove God doesn't exist' argument. Oh dear.

You are quite right, I can't however I'm sure you know full well that just because I can't prove he doesn't exist and you can't prove he does, that doesn't make the probability of either of those positions being true a 50/50.

If you take any position that has not a single shred of objective evidence to support it, then it is completely acceptable to say that it is not true.

The lack of any evidence of any kind to support your position is an objective and testable fact.

If you teach children something that has no evidence to support it, then you are lying. I honestly believe that many religious people know deep down that it is all nonsense, which is why they so often take the same position as you do and bang on about the 'benefits of faith' instead of trying to actually prove their beliefs are true.

Your position can effectively be summed up as, "it doesn't matter if it's true or not, it makes people feel better".

What a dishonest way to live.

"The lack of any evidence of any kind to support your position is an objective and testable fact." Right back at ya!

JaneyEJones

Why is it odd? In some ways, an atheist is the best person to be a Professor of Theology. No irrational biases in their evaluation of the subject matter.

Would you also object to Humanists or Secularists going into achool and peddling their belief system?

CritEqual

You think there is no evidence to support Material Naturalism?

Right....🤨

Seniorcitizen1

Yes to Humanists.

Secularism isn't an ideology. It simply states that religion should be irrelevant to public life.

YANBU

The absolutely only verifiably 100% true thing I can assert is Decartes first certaintly Cogito ergo sum namely that I exist. Every other statement I could make is open to and subject to error. We still teach the Newtonian model of physics even through we know from quantum physics it is veriably false, yet I doubt you will howl cries of lying at your DC's physics teacher when that comes up, and if not where is your consistency?

You also "honestly believe" many religous know it's all nonsense? So basically you are claiming a form of omniscience over the minds of the faithful. On the one hand you decry the faith I and many others earnestly posses whilst claiming nigh on supernatural powers for yourself on the strength of you basically said so? Your narcissim really does stun me quite frankly.

Also don't strawman my position, I can and do accept the possibility my faith is misplaced, and I am in fact in error. That is kind of the whole point of faith is that I don't know for sure. As a person with faith you can and should be acutely aware of your own human frailties and imperfections, faith and doubt kind of go hand in hand if you really delve into it.

So if I say to a kid I believe in god, but just because I believe in god does not necessarily make it so and I may indeed be wrong, and yet my faith sustains me in this belief, and then define that faith as the reason I believe what I do, but honestly state my faith may be misplaced then I haven't been dishonest or lied to anyone.

I teach RE and am an atheist. In fact it's teaching the subject, hearing the kids question it every day, that made me an atheist.

*We still teach the Newtonian model of physics even though we know from quantum physics it is veriably false
*
Rubbish. It's not a full description, but it's most certainly not "false".

CritEqual

I can and do accept that my faith may be misplaced

Yet you still say that there are benefits to faith. Where is the straw-man? "It might not be true but it makes people feel better."

My belief that religious people know it's all bollocks is just my belief. I'm not claiming it's a position of divine or revealed truth.

Newtonian physics is almost exactly accurate at the slow speeds and macro scales that we experience in our daily lives. It serves as a useful approximation for humans to understand physics and is taught as such, not as a viable 'alternate theory'.

Any more?

Btw I'm still waiting on some evidence of God's existence to back up your position.

I won't hold my breath.

Religion is fascinating. Why people believe, what they believe, the history and sociology of it. The literature, the art- there's enough there to keep you busy for a lifetime. And I wouldn't dream of rejecting something I know nothing about. So, Janey-you mentioned feminism........

We still teach the Newtonian model of physics even through we know from quantum physics it is veriably false"
No it isn't- there are plenty of gaps , but that's cool. They'll be filled in soon enough. And then there'll be more gaps.......

There is evidence fhat believers don't truly believe, actually.

When was the last time a single one actually prayed for a genuine miracle, and had any expectation that it might happen?

If they were praying for amputated limbs to regrow or for a person who's been dead for three days to rise again, that would be something. But no....they only ever ask for something that has a good chance of happening anyway.

And none of them ever sell everything they own as instructed by Jesus.