To want the Gideons to get the #### out of my child's school

[PatriarchyPersonified]

As I have made clear on threads on here in the past, I am an atheist (I'm actually a strong anti-theist) and I believe in the secularisation of society. (i.e religion can be there for people who want it but it should be irrelevant to anybodies day to day life unless they want to make it relevant.)

I believe that children should be taught about religions in school, as part of a comprehensive RE syllabus, and particularly about Christianity, as I believe from a cultural and historical perspective, it is impossible to fully understand the history and culture of the UK without reference to the bible. I would feel the same way about the Qu'ran if I lived in an Arab country btw.

What I am not happy about is that my oldest DC (12) has just had the bloody Gideon Society hosting an assembly in their school and dishing out Bibles! School is not the place for this. There is a reason why religious groups always target schools and prisons, its where the easy targets are.

CritEqual

Well yes we would like to see some divine power. A bit of a demo wouldn't hurt.

It's not unprecedented either, after all miracles were 10 a penny on the Old and New testament. Why has God stopped all the miracaling?

He was happy to demonstrate his power no problems back then. It seems a shame that the miracles stopped just as proper records and cameras were invented. Bit of a coincidence that...

@borderline11

I'm going to use small words here. We don't get cold callers. Because I live in an area with a very large proportion of elderly people in sheltered housing we are in a police-supported no cold calling area. JWs ignore this. You don't see at all how that is inappropriate. So no it isn't comparible to double glazing salesmen because we don't get them, hence for ME it is a big problem.

Oh but what's that you say, we can only criticise Christianity

Who has said that?

This thread was - to start with - to do with specifically The Gideon group, ergo people are discussing Christianity in that regard. I have specifically said a number of times ANY faith school should not be state funded. I genuinely don't know how to make it any clearer.

People really need to apply critical thinking to the notion than wanting a secular state is somehow "Christian bashing"

To me a Christian ethos would fall in with Jesus's teaching.

But the trouble with that is much of that ethos wasn’t particularly distinctive or original in terms of underpinning values, and commonly espoused as ‘Christian’ tend to have existed and been promoted by societies since we evolved to the point where communal living became desirable, and separate from Christian societies since Christianity began.

Separate from that, you will encounter scepticism because the Christian churches have at different times and between different traditions have had radically different interpretations of what constitute the most important ‘Christian values’. And not all of them are very nice.

seems a shame that the miracles stopped just as proper records and cameras were invented

Fatima?

I think the most important thing in any ethos is to be kind and to treat others as you would want to be treated

I agree with that absolutely, woodhill.

It’s a pity how little it is often reflected in practice, particularly between belief systems.

How are we supposed to know what 'Jesus' teachings are? The supposed Bible is not meant to be taken literally and when you ask any christian what the correct interpretation of the Bible is you get a million different answers.

So it worries me who these Gideons are and what version of American evangelicalism are they trying to push on our young children. Its not cricket, I will tell you that.

And I’m sorry, I was really imprecise there because atheism isn’t a belief system. But I know atheists can be very unkind to theists, just as theists are unkind to other kinds of theists, and to atheists.

5PlusMeAndHim

Fatima?

You mean this?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun?wprov=sfla1

Ok...🤨

Bearing in mind that God is supposed to be literally omnipotent, meaning he can do anything. If he wanted to produce a miracle I'd expect something like the parting of the Red Sea, the regrowing of a severed limb. Something a bit more... Unequivocal.

A flashing light in the sky witnessed in a hundred different ways by a hundred different people that has numerous natural explanations strikes me as a bit, ambiguous? Doesn't that worry you or give you cause to take a second thought?

I mean God could write "PatriarchyPersonified, I'm real so shut the fuck up" in fire across the UK night sky right now if he wanted to, that'd be pretty convincing don't you think?

It'd certainly shut me up. I won't hold my breath though.

The Gideons are not about educating people ABOUT Christianity, they are about converting people TO Christianity. This is not what school is for. It is a matter of principle.

Our children, while at school should not have anyone ‘selling ‘ their religion or anything else. Bring in zealous Muslims wanting to convert yokng people? Sign them up to Forever Living (well-being is so important) or perhaps invite the stories in with a campaign designed to sign kids up to the Young Conservatives?

Never mind how independently minded your kids are, is this actually what their state-funded time is for ?

This is not what school is for. It is a matter of principle.

Unfortunately the lines are already so blurred by the requirement for daily worship. So it’s easy for organisations whose motivations are to covert to get a foot in the door.

Great Jassy 😊

A flashing light in the sky witnessed in a hundred different ways by a hundred different people

Actually more like 70,000 witnesses, and the predictions?

Some of 70,000 people who were there to see a miracle and had been staring at the sun for several hours saw flashing lights. Yep-that’ll happen. And i don’t think there were any predictions. Oh, except that the war would end, but not when.

People have been staring at the sun for thousands of years, seeing things and concluding yip my god is the real one and everyone else is deluded. Hence why Jesus was called the Son of God because it is derived from the Sun God.

Given that the sun can be seen by half the planet (at any one time), any 'dancing sun miracle' would be seen by literally millions of people. There would be books written about it by eye witnesses from several continents and dozens of countries.

And yet there wasn't, the 'Fatima' event was probably an atmospheric optical phenomenon called a parhelion. Or like PP said, they had been staring at the sun to long and were seeing things.

You don't need to teach things at school that aren't facts. It's simply not needed.

Woah!! Really?? Better stop teaching art and drama. And anything involving creativity!

I haven't made it through the whole thread, but so far it's been very interesting.

Can't really argue with OP's main point- there should be no pushing of a particular religious agenda by a group like the Gideons. But it's not 100% clear that's what this assembly was like - I don't think OP has fully explained?

Anyway, I'm a bit surprised at the way some posters are suggesting that they know for sure all religion and spirituality is bullshit.

It's surely fairly widely accepted now that science and religion are not in fact mutually exclusive. It's a bit like suggesting that being clever and being in love are mutually exclusive.

And it's also not really accurate to suggest that we demand incontrovertible evidence for everything in our lives. Suddenly everyone lives every aspect of their life like a scientist? So if someone tells you they love someone, you demand science-level evidence that can be measured in a lab??

As I said, I don't disagree with OP's actual point. But the "I'm a clever atheist" thing that's grown out if it a bit underwhelming.

• is a bit underwhelming

I'd say your attitude is far more likely to turn your kids into Christians than the Gideons.

“It's surely fairly widely accepted now that science and religion are not in fact mutually exclusive”.

Is it?

I think it's fascinating that some (most?) of the major religions echo each other in many ways, yet contradict each other in others.

To me, it is not absurd that there should be some ultimate understanding that we, in our limited capacity, can't comprehend. Religion, in all its guises, is our muddled attempt to put all the bits together and find a way to understand.

Of course we fail.

But that doesn't mean there isn't a right answer. Personally, I don't find it any more convincing that it's all a massive accident. I don't get wht humans love art and music and beauty in the world if it all just boils down to atoms and electricity.

However, none of that means that faith should govern schools and schooling!

No, I don't think science and religion are mutually exclusive betrand

I mean, specific bits of the Christian story contradict science, yes. But I think any sensible Christian has to understand the creation story, for example, as an allegory. I can't accept the OT at face value.

But, in a general sense, science is the 'how' and religion is the 'why' surely?

But that doesn't mean there isn't a right answer. Personally, I don't find it any more convincing that it's all a massive accident. I don't get what humans love art and music and beauty in the world if it all just boils down to atoms and electricity

Why do you think there is either a 'right' answer or its all just one big accident? Very narrow minded.
Like wise, why do you have to explain art by either god or atoms/electricity. Also very narrow minded.

Both those closed minded choices are the result of buying the religious koolaid we would prefer to keep out of schools.

Did you mean to be so rude Julie ? I'm not aware of having insulted you?! Why do you think it's ok to call me narrow-minded?

I think by stating that there's either a 'right answer' [to explain the point of our existence] or that it's simply an accident (i.e. there's no reason and therefore no 'answer') pretty much covers all bases, doesn't it? Is there a third possibility? I'd really like you to justify that attack on me, if you don't mind

And I didn't actually say you had to explain our love of art/beauty either through god or electricity. I was trying to suggest that science won't necessarily be able to explain why we find beauty in the world, though it might be able to measure how we respond to it.

I don't have an axe to grind here Julie Do you?

But, in a general sense, science is the 'how' and religion is the 'why' surely?

Science is the how and some religions accept that.

Religion wants their to be a why, but science does not accept that even makes sense.