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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To want the Gideons to get the #### out of my child's school

477 replies

PatriarchyPersonified · 15/02/2018 13:50

As I have made clear on threads on here in the past, I am an atheist (I'm actually a strong anti-theist) and I believe in the secularisation of society. (i.e religion can be there for people who want it but it should be irrelevant to anybodies day to day life unless they want to make it relevant.)

I believe that children should be taught about religions in school, as part of a comprehensive RE syllabus, and particularly about Christianity, as I believe from a cultural and historical perspective, it is impossible to fully understand the history and culture of the UK without reference to the bible. I would feel the same way about the Qu'ran if I lived in an Arab country btw.

What I am not happy about is that my oldest DC (12) has just had the bloody Gideon Society hosting an assembly in their school and dishing out Bibles! School is not the place for this. There is a reason why religious groups always target schools and prisons, its where the easy targets are.

OP posts:
JacquesHammer · 17/02/2018 14:30

@borderline11

But ask yourself this, would you so freely and openly talk about any other religion in such a derogatory way

I haven’t spoken about Christianity in a derogatory way at ALL. I have an issue with those who practise any religion forcing their beliefs on others.

I don’t see what you’re finding difficult to understand about that?

JassyRadlett · 17/02/2018 14:35

And yet the CofE schools are also apparently overflowing because people are annoyed their non religious kids can't get a place.

Well, many aren’t. But those that are oversubscribed tend to do well because, like all schools that select, and like church congregations, they tend to be more middle-class than the communities they are located in. Which creates a draw for other middle-class parents. And so the cycle continues.

borderline11 · 17/02/2018 14:37

Big of you. Do the majority of Jews or Muslims have the widespread ability to send their children to a school that aligns to their faith of choice?
What in a Christian country? no why should they, and they seem quite happy for their children. Would Islamic countries build schools and churches for Christians. Confused

woodhill · 17/02/2018 14:41

Totally agree Border

JassyRadlett · 17/02/2018 14:41

What in a Christian country? no why should they, and they seem quite happy for their children.

The poster was talking about the existence of such schools. I was asking whether the provision of faith schools was aligned to faith populations, or whether it was rather luck of the draw in terms of people’s ability to send their children to a school

However, you seem to be arguing that being a Christian country all the schools should have some kind of Christian character? Sorry if I’ve got that wrong. Apart from a tiny minority of schools, that’s the case in law - how lucky for you :)

Would Islamic countries build schools and churches for Christians.

How is that relevant to life in Britain?

Canany1help · 17/02/2018 14:43

I do and don't agree with OP. I'm Catholic, brought up in an atheist household, ppl wouldn't know of my faith unless they visit my home as I never tell anyone unless they specifically ask. I am married but as my husband is agnostic chose a basic registry office ceremony.
I vaguely remember the Gideon bibles being handed out in my school days (I may have it somewhere!) I was atheist back then (actually very aggressively atheist but that's not point here).
So getting to my point I agree that religion should be taught via a specific lesson but since school is the place to open childrens minds to the world in a secure environment then I have no problem...so long as all other faiths/views etc are allowed. At my children's school they've had a Rabbi/Anglican bishop/Muslim Cleric and various other faiths and representatives visit...Actually the only faith that's not been represented was Catholicism. I loved son telling me how he'd been married...it was a Jewish ceremony they recreated, he's only 5 so didn't understand there were differences...the main point they got across was love and how ppl gather to celebrate the love of a couple in love...a whole lot of love!

woodhill · 17/02/2018 14:43

The country is built on a Christian heritage so is it so surprising that it is embedded in schools or politics.

JacquesHammer · 17/02/2018 14:46

@woodhill

Nobody has said the contrary. But things can and should change

woodhill · 17/02/2018 14:47

You may find something else that fills the vacuum worse?

JacquesHammer · 17/02/2018 14:51

@woodhill removing state funding from schools that have selective criteria wouldn’t be worse. It would mean a more level playing field for a start and you’d move away from the melee surrounding getting a primary school place.

JassyRadlett · 17/02/2018 14:52

You may find something else that fills the vacuum worse?

Perhaps. That’s inherent in all change. But most of us would aim for ‘let’s make it better’.

And given the pretty small numbers actually regularly worshipping or practising their Christian faith, I suspect the nominal vacuum from not having an established church may not actually be all that great.

borderline11 · 17/02/2018 14:59

"Strange isn't it how many schools now have so many out of control, violent kids who have zero respect for teachers. Not hard to see why is it"

Right so that’s all due to lack of Christian teaching?
Yes i believe it is. A lot of children hardly know the difference between right and wrong, they aren't getting it from the parents, schools used to play a vital role in teaching basic Christian humanity. It's shocking how bad the behaviour is of a lot of kids today, both in the school and out of it. It's getting worse and i can definitely see a connection with that and a lack of any Christian morals.

woodhill · 17/02/2018 15:00

I'm glad mine went to a state funded selective school with a Christian ethos.

BertrandRussell · 17/02/2018 15:00

What might come along to fill the vacuum? There are plenty of schools who only nod towards Christian worship and it would be very easy to replace the “nod”. Just let all state schools be like that.

BertrandRussell · 17/02/2018 15:02

“It's shocking how bad the behaviour is of a lot of kids today, both in the school and out of it. It's getting worse and i can definitely see a connection with that and a lack of any Christian morals.”

Grin I hate all the atheist-bashing on here. We seem to be the only group it’s OK to bash...........

JacquesHammer · 17/02/2018 15:04

@borderline11 I don’t believe you need the teachings of a book to install good morals in people though.

I was brought up by non-believing parents who were both brought up by non-believing parents (which was fairly unusual at the time). All of us are good people, I believe because we have no religion not despite it.

derxa · 17/02/2018 15:05

I hate all the atheist-bashing on here. We seem to be the only group it’s OK to bash........... Grin That must be one of your most outrageous statements yet, Bertrand

JacquesHammer · 17/02/2018 15:05

I'm glad mine went to a state funded selective school with a Christian ethos

And there’s the crux, you feel you benefitted of the disparity in education provision so don’t want you level the playing field.

woodhill · 17/02/2018 15:06

I'm not bothered about your atheism if that's what you want and I hope I'm not bashingSmile

woodhill · 17/02/2018 15:09

Without going into too much detail my dd was selected on a criteria. We don't live near the school. The schools near us are reasonable too but I liked the Christian ethos.

We couldn't afford PE and dh is from a working class background as were my dps

JacquesHammer · 17/02/2018 15:12

@woodhill my point was specifically surrounding selection on faith grounds, NOT other criteria.

JacquesHammer · 17/02/2018 15:15

One of our schools has criteria including “attends church in diocese” and “attends church outside diocese”

The system is too easy to play. I know someone who attended church to get her child a place, then stopped.

I have no issue with faith schools existing but they should be self-funded and separate from tax funded education.

borderline11 · 17/02/2018 15:15

jaques you were fortunate to have had good parents, not all kids do, the only place they'd get any moral guidelines were in school. That doesn't really happen now, i definitely think it's made a difference. Kids at my Dgd school will quite happily tell a teacher to "go fuck himself". That would NEVER have happened years ago.
I can see a pattern and it's very worrying.

JassyRadlett · 17/02/2018 15:18

A lot of children hardly know the difference between right and wrong, they aren't getting it from the parents, schools used to play a vital role in teaching basic Christian humanity. It's shocking how bad the behaviour is of a lot of kids today, both in the school and out of it. It's getting worse and i can definitely see a connection with that and a lack of any Christian morals

It isn’t offensive at all to suggest that morality and positive behaviour is linked to following Christianity. Smile Christians remain the only group it’s ok to bash on Mumsnet.

BertrandRussell · 17/02/2018 15:21

"hate all the atheist-bashing on here. We seem to be the only group it’s OK to bash........... grin That must be one of your most outrageous statements yet, Bertrand"

I have to say, though in all seriousness, that being told that someone thinks of my God in the same way as they think of Father Christmas seems pretty mild when compared with being told I have no moral compass.